For starters I am NOT trolling and do not have anything against Christians. I envy their faith if anything, I just get confused at a lot of matters and it pretty much destroys my faith as I have never found an answer.. I am sure some have been asked on this section before.

"love god, fear god"

I do not see how there can be any love in fear.. Or any of the right type.. You shouldn't be afraid of anything you love.

If god gave us free will, and murder can get us sent to hell.. Why were people who are MUCH more susceptible to murdering made..It would seem that calm minded people or people who haven't had the horrible upbringing that drives some people to murder have a very unfair advantage over getting saved than people who havent.

Something like 80% of American adults will admit to being christian whilst in some countries practically nobody is christian.. Does that mean that if you are born in the wrong place.. Raised in a different way then you are automatically going to hell for not accepting Jesus? I do not think it is people raised theres fault that they do not accept Christ as they have had something different battered into their head from birth.

If a god loving man lives his life by the book, then commits a sin serious enough to go to hell for... Feels awful, is going home to pray and repent, then gets hit by a car does that mean that he is doomed to go to hell forever?

The prospect of hell does really bother me in general.

Religions before god? There were many religions before ones portrayed of the god we know and think of today... I can never get around this.

My friend says that christianity was made by the romans to keep public order but I myself do not believe that claim one bit and think it is slightly insulting to anyone who devotes their life to their beliefs.

Many miracles happened in the bible,, world floods for which there is no geographical evidence today.. People moving whole rivers apart, People coming back from the dead, Why does none of this happen today when we have the equipment to prove it actually did happen?

In the story of sol(I think) god talks to the devil.. And lets him torment a man..And his family just to prove a point to him.. Why would a loving god do that just to prove a point to the devil? Why would a loving god commit people to burn forever for minor sins, and let the ruler of all evil have his own kingdom/world/realm and allow him to manipulate people into joining him there. I see no reason why people can't be redeemed after they die or why hell can't be a place you spend your time UNTIL you can accept gods love and that Jesus died for you.

Also the Jesus dying for our sins is another thing that puzzles me..

I do not see how you can justify death, suffering and pain with forgiveness... I do not see how the only way god could bring himself to forgive us would be to have an innocent man, his own son even nailed to a cross. Couldn't something a lot less barbaric have been done to have us forgiven

I will accept that I am just uneducated, but I would really like to be enlightened, I am a very open minded person and will appreciate and read any answers given.

well since you are sincere in this, i'll attempt to answer your questions, although the disclaimer is that i dont know everything and i never will until the day the lord returns
i will attempt to clear up some things as we go along the way

first off, love god and fear god - i wana start off by saying that God is not a human being like you and i, he's the creator of the whole universe and all things bow down to him, all should fear himn ofcourse, since he is the creator of it all
now in human relationships, do they ahve the power to do anything they want? human relationships are horizontal in teh fact that each human is equal in power and influence, in the relationship between man and god it is vertical in which god is higher, more powerful, and is the dominant party leaving you to be the subordinate
fear is also another way of saying, i respect you or i acknowledge you, if you fear god, you know of his power, you know of his capabilities, you know he is real, you know he's in control of everything, that is why in proverbs it says teh fear of god is the beginning of wisdom, this means you are beginning to become wise because you know who's in real control of the world, you realize that even if you are hurt, God will take that in account and take care of it, You are also wise because you know that if you do something bad, God will also take that into account and you decide not to do it, basically teh fear of God is knowing that he's real and that we should fear him because that's where we belong, we are created by him therefore we are truly his property
if you created something, obviously you would like to believe that it's yours, nobody can claim it to be theirs, even the thing that you created can't say i own me, since God technically owns us all then we are to fear and worship him
while this is true, God desires us all to love him, that is why he gave us all a free choice, if he didn't love us he wouldn't have given us a choice, how would he know that we love him or not unless we had free will, it's like the king who has power over his subjects but wants to know if his subjects love him, so he tells them go ahead and leave if you want to, if you want to stay then i'll know you love me and i am good to you, if you want to go then go
we can still fear him and love him

as for the matter of placement in this world having to do with affecting your choice of getting saved or not, while this is a touchy subject and even many christians debate about this all the time, from what i know there have been many examples of kids who have grown up in christian homes and even kids who have grown up as pastor's kids and have totally rejected the faith, so just by being influenced by the word of God many times does not mean that you will automatically be saved, and being in a secluded island away from all civilization doesn't excuse anyone either, because god has made it clear and revealed himself even in nature, and if someone is sincere, they will get an answer, in teh form of a missionary or someone who is willing to go out there and tell them, god promises that you will always get an answer when you ask him to reveal himself to you, like i said before i dont know everything but i have the tendency to believe that those people who are secluded dont want to believe in God or don't have a desire to see him, that's why they havent' been reached yet - but that's not for me to say because i dont know man's hearts and i dont know what they're really thinking - all i know is that God has given every man a chance otherwise because he is willing that every man should be saved

the matter where the god loving man dies - once a god loving man or "believer" has trusted on jesus christ as his personal saviour, he will never lose his salvation, no matter what he does, think about it, do you actually think we as humans can go on 5 seconds in life without sinning? ofc not, do you see us always praying for repentance? some of us prolly dont or pray once a week in church, but the point here is that a believer will never lose his salvation once he has trusted on jesus christ

the prospect of hell bothers you? it should, people are going to hell, simple as that, i dont want to sugar coat it, if they're not saved, they're going to hell, it should bother believers that others all around them are goin to hell, which should encourage bleievers to continue to tell the world about jesus instead of fearing what others have to say, you can tell someone the information, what they do with it is their business

God is not a religion, and neither should Christianity, true Christianity is a personal relationship with God, it is not what church you go to, it's not which father or priest you confess your sins to, it doesn't matter how often you pray in the day, it doesn't matter how many times you have climbed the stairs with your knees, it doesn't matter how many hail marys you have said - what matters is that you have a personal relationship with Christ

i think your friend needs a history lesson, or is really just confused as to what real christianity is about, he probably means the Catholic church which was used and is still used as a political aspect in society, not gona sugar coat this either, the Catholic church is not true christianity, if you are abiding by hail marys and how big or how fancy your church or how much indulgences you have bought

yes miracles did happen in the bible, and yes they didnt have cam corders and photographs back then, simple - if you saw a man raising people from the dead, would you have believe instantly that this man is jesus? ofcourse, then what's the use of faith? if you have proof, what's the use of faith? there would be no point at all

in this story you speak of, i believ it's the book of Job, and yes God allows you to go through difficult times, it's a part of life and it's a part of allowing you to learn, it's a part of allowing you to humble yourself, it's many things, but God will only allow you to go through what you can handle, he won't put u in a situation that you will completely and utterly reject him because you feel abandoned, another thing is, if you have never had any trouble or problems before in your life, how do you expect to ever grow up? how do you expect to ever take care of yourself if everything was given to you in a silver platter?

God could have died a quick and painless death, yes that is true. the fact of the matter is... GOD LOVES YOU, SO MUCH THAT HE WOULD SHOW HIS LOVE FOR YOU BY BEING BEATEN, WHIPPED AND CHUNKS OF HIS FLESH RIPPED OFF, WEARING THORNS ON HIS HEAD, BEING STRIPPED OF HIS CLOTHING, HAVING HIS BEARD PULLED OUT, BEING NAILED ON A TREE, if that's not vivid enough, the nails they stuck through him were through his wrists not his hands, a pain that hits a certain nerve in the body that some have said to be unbearable, but he did it ALL, just to show you how much he loved you, he could have taken a pill, he could have taken a poison and died a comfortable death in private, but instead he chose to die a publically humiliating death while everyone laughed at him the ones that he loved pounding nails into his wrists and ankles... if hta'ts not love my friend then what is?

another thing is that jesus was sinless, that means he was a clean slate, comparatively to us who are dirty and full of sin, he was the only one who can save us

i hope this answers some of your questions

Thank you very much conviction, very interesting perspective. From the way you have put what god went through are you saying that Jesus IS god in human form?

And does this mean that those who died before Jesus could save them go to hell?

I would like to believe that if you ask god to reveal himself he will do so, but it has not happened to me since.. Or maybe I have been asking/looking wrong. I was mainly praying/trying to believe when I was going through some severe panic attacks which have now practically stopped..

The thing about people being born in different places.. Do you think that if you were born in a muslim country where EVERYONE (almost) was muslim you would be a Christian? I think they believe that their religion is the right one just as much as you/we believe this one is because that is what they have been brought up with. Some might even say religion is sometimes brainwashed upon people. I do think everyone has the choice to accept Christ but if that choice makes no sense to them due to what they have been raised to believe then they would have no real reason to make that decision.. They would think that accepting Christ is the wrong choice and think they are betraying nothing. Thinking they are being loyal to their god and we are the "infidels"

Also did you write that passage at the bottom of this post or is it your sig?

Faith?

Fear in that sense means to be accountable to Him.

For example, He comes to this planet with a massive army of many millions fairly soon. It will be the unbelievers who are Terrified of Him. The believers fear & love Him, giving all honor and glory to His majesty!

Here is a scripture describing how the unbelievers will feel at the end of the age, such as presidents, world leaders, bankers, etc...:



And here is what Jesus said the believers should do at the end of the age:



This post was edited by Torm1 on Dec 20 2010 09:34pm

Proverbs 8:13-17 (King James Version)

13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.


1 John 4:16-18 (King James Version)

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

]alot has bin said allready havent read all but most of it sounds quite nicely, good notes from conviction though quite alot...


I do not see how you can justify death, suffering and pain with forgiveness... I do not see how the only way god could bring himself to forgive us would be to have an innocent man, his own son even nailed to a cross. Couldn't something a lot less barbaric have been done to have us forgiven



as to this note I have something to say from a more human part of view and not the words of the bibel while they are good too

you cant justify death or any bad for the matter

but know this,,, evil brings only more evil,, and we are all as innocent as we are evil,,

the only thing that can bring peace to a persons soul,, is forgiveness
and it is also the other way around,, while someone may have hurt you,, deeply even,, you must forgive them in order to get on with your life,, your wounds,, scars wont heal untill you do that,,

revenge is part of life us human our choise,, but they bring nothing but more pain and suffering,,, evil

FX!

a girl gets raped,, this is what even normel people can bring up alot of anger and evil about! they get so angry,,,
say its your doughter,, your girl you sweet little girl,

you want that guy to suffer you want him to die! as that would be fair for what he has done,,

fact is,, it wont do anything,, the father will end up in prison,, leaving his little girl behind,, did the revenge do anything? no,,, and it might just make things worse,,
forgive those whom has done bad things, evil only brings more evil,,

same as for good, be good to someone and they might just return the same joy back

jesus is part of the trinity of God - nobody knowse exactly how it works but to put it in a perspective that we can understand its almost like he's all 3 at the same time but fulfills a different role in each
jesus the son of God died for our sins, he's the ultimate sacrifice, and you ask why a death was needed to combat sin, well, sin leads to death, sin is the cause of death, before sin, there was no death, death is the curse from sin
another thing about sacrifices, God ordered sacrifices of lambs to be made when the israelite people sinned, whenever there is sin, someone has to pay, ofc... with DEATH, jesus paid that debt for us, we deserve death without God
Jesus was the final payment for all the sins of mankind forever and ever
and as you were saying, about the people before Jesus time were they saved? well, those who were looking forward to the coming of Jesus were saved, much like we have faith to believe that Jesus died for us, they had to have the faith that jesus was coming, God is not limited to time so faith in jesus is still the same whether he has come already or past

the thing about muslims and their faith, each person in this world has faith whether they know it or not, even athiests have faith in believing that there is no god, they dont know for sure that there is a god or not but they choose not to believe in one without any proof that God DOESNT EXIST, llike jesus said "i am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the father but by me" - this is jesus saying that he's the only way, there is no other way no matter how much faith you have, it's the object of your faith that is most important whether you have the faith of a powerful and rich man or the faith of a child, as long as your faith is in jesus you will be able to go to heaven, so it doesnt matter if muslims have alot of faith in their beliefs what really matters is the object of their faith
there have been many examples of muslims who have found the true god and reject islam altogether, there have been buddhists who have rejected buddhism, there have been witch doctors who have rejected animalism/spiritualism, there have been greeks and romans who have rejected zeus and the other gods, there have been jews who have rejected judaism and have come to the true god, if there was any people who are more negative towards jesus it is the jews themselves, atleast from what i have heard because they want so badly to know that the messiah will come back as a political and warring leader that will destroy all their enemies and free them instead of some man who died 2000 years ago claiming to save ALL people instead of just jews, and they reject him because of that, now all these examples you would think that each person in the world has a chance of being saved, even through all the opposition and the rebuke that they could possibly face because they decided to follow christ

so again, it's not the fact that they have so much faith, it's the fact that their faith is not in the right place, and yes some people may be "brainwashed" but i have the tendency to believe that they feel empty at the end of the day, i'm sure their faith is fueled by somethin else, and it's temporary, every faith needs to be fueled by something otherwise the faith would dissipate, the christian faith is fueled by christ and his love, other faith whether it's buddhism, muslim, atheists, spiritualism has to be fueled by something whtether it be fear, hatred, revenge, enlightenment which are only temporary and will never be able to satisfy humans

and my signature is just the definition of Conviction - an unshakable belief in something without need for proof or evidence, my name started off originating as the D2 skill Conviction that lowers resistances but since then i've learned more about it and i didnt even know a christian forum existed on d2jsp, it's funny how things work out

This post was edited by Conviction on Dec 21 2010 12:56pm

I changed my mind and answered everything.




This post was edited by melodude on Dec 21 2010 08:24pm