I considered posting this in PaRD but I can't stand the feedback (if that's what you call it) that is received there.

The issue I am bringing up has strong political and religious ties which is one of the main reasons why it is so controversial: Abortion.

After much thought on the issue, I think I have come up with a separate solution for Christians. My stance on the issue of abortion is this: God gave us free will - free will to believe in Him, free will of actions, free will over everything we do. With that said, who are we to take this God-granted free will away from anyone else? We are to be imitators of God, and part of that is the imitation of His actions (the granting of free will.) These people have the free will granted by God to act as they please, so let them. I suppose Jesus would say, "he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Further, while abortion is considered murder, murder is equal to every other sin in God's eyes. Thus, it can not be against the law based upon it being a sin alone because there are many sins, such as pornography, that are not illegal. This means that there really is no place for the religious argument in the grand scheme.

This does not mean that we just give up on the issue. We must rebuke these actions and discourage them.

"Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins." James 5:20

As fellow Christians, what are your thoughts? Are we to deny people the free will that God himself has granted them?

This post was edited by ihavethesniffles on Apr 23 2010 02:21pm

I disapprove of it because the baby has the right to live in my eyes. Adoption is a perfect solution that runs distinctly with abortion in my eyes but never gets talked about.

The only people seeking abortion are people who were irresponsible in their choices and I think it is unfair for the child to suffer.

What about people who receive abortions because of health concerns? Either way, what you said is not a religiously based argument, but a political one. I am speaking of religious ones. You should read Deuteronomy 1:39.

Oh come on now... How many times are we going to hear "What if the mother is going to die? What if the mother was raped? etc etc... " First of all these instances that people always seem to bring up as an excuse are EXTREMELY rare. You and I both know that the millions of abortions that happen every year are a result from people just not wanting a baby. Abortion has become a form of birth control now. So let's please talk about the "bigger" picture, and leave the health/rape excuses out of it.

Free will has nothing to do with taking the life of another person. By doing so, you are forcefully taking their freedoms away. A baby has no defense. You are taking the role of God when you decide you can take the freedoms away from an innocent baby.

Also, keep in mind that all sin is the same in regards to the punishment. All sin separates you from God. Jesus fills that gap. BUT all sin does not carry the same judgement. On the day of judgement everyone will have to stand trial for all the sins they committed.

This post was edited by Dune1 on Apr 23 2010 04:23pm

And you are taking the role of God in denying anyone their free will, which God himself granted in the first place. A baby does have a defense - us. Teaching someone why it is wrong to murder an innocent baby is far different than simply denying them the ability to do so. Why do you think that God gave us free will in the first place? Because otherwise we would just be puppets and there would be no point.

I think our theologies of judgement day and Heaven and Hell may differ a bit then. Here is a direct quote by me from another thread:



Either way, you haven't touched my argument. Free will has everything to do with taking the life of another person. If God has given us the free will to do so, then who are we to take the free will away from others? Even then, it's not as though laws stop any actions that are implemented. If you want to look at the big picture then look at all of the back door abortions that occur by hangers, drugs, etc. And where is this invisible line then that separates what the should be compared to what it is? Drunkenness is not against the law, but it is a sin. Pornography is not against the law if one is of age, but it is a sin. Premarital sex is not against the law, but it is a sin. Why don't we limit all these people and take away their free will?

In sum, the only sin that is above any other sin is that of denying God and blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. With that, God does not condemn anyone to Hell, but we condemn ourselves to Hell.

This post was edited by ihavethesniffles on Apr 23 2010 04:55pm

First of all.. I don't know how "free-will" plays into all this. Free-will is the freedom to believe in God, or not believe. It doesn't refer to sinning or not sinning. We are not supposed to sin, and the bible makes that very clear. But God understands we will sin, so he sent a way to have our sins forgiven. If we have the opportunity to stop sin, we should. Whether it impedes on our own life, or the life of another. In this case, a mother and an unborn child. Where in the bible does it say we are to allow everyone to continue sinning, because they have the freedom to do so? I agree that teaching is the biggest way of deterring mothers from killing their babies, but if we have the opportunity to put that lesson into actual law.. we should do that as well. It is no different that trying to outlaw homosexual marriages. It is a sin just the same. We are to HATE sin, just as God does.

I guess I don't understand where you're trying to get at. We should just allow people to sin and be ok with it? If someone is a liar, we should be against that sin and discourage it. It someone is a drunkard we should do the same. Etc.. Etc..

This post was edited by Dune1 on Apr 24 2010 09:30am

Don't ever twist my words like that again because I clearly stated I don't condone it.

My point is that free will encompasses everything, not just believing in God. Free will is the ability to make our own decisions. After all, these sins and actions are what separate us from God. Are you denying that our actions are not of our own accord, then, and placing the responsibility of these actions on God?

This post was edited by ihavethesniffles on Apr 24 2010 11:15am

DON'T EVER TWIST MY WORDS LIKE THAT AGAIN!!! ...... lol

Again, Free-will is in regards to believing in God.. not sinning. God does not force us to believe in him, nor does he force us to sin. We are inherently sinners. That has been passed down from Adam and Eve, as they are the one's that brought sin into this world. Humans cannot help but sin, again something God recognizes.. I believe I already stated that.. so I don't know where your confusion is with my words.

Free-will doesn't involve sin, because "all have sinned and fall short...". Nobody can escape sin.

I made a Confessions thread that you can go view. I posted some habitual sins that I have. Are you telling me that I do not have the ability to escape those habitual sins because sin is inevitable? Either way, it looks as if we are at a stalemate. While I know it is impossible to be pure, that does not mean that we can't make our own choices. After all, humans are not completely evil.

Just found this on the internet, and it depicts what I am trying to tell you perfectly, "Why did Adam and Eve sin? The answer you'll probably get is, "because they were tempted." If you ask, "why did they give in to the temptation," the answer will most likely be, "because God gave them the free will to do so."

This post was edited by ihavethesniffles on Apr 24 2010 12:38pm

I am not saying that humans cannot overcome sin. Of course we can make our own choices to sin or not sin. But do we? No. Never. There will never be anyone that can claim they have not sinned. Will you be able to escape your habitual sins? I don't think so. Can you overcome them? Sure. But the ones that you overcame will just be replaced by others. Again, we cannot escape sin. Should we try? of course. Will we succeed? no. Again.. the purpose of Jesus.

Edit -

It is also illegal to murder, rape, steal, etc... Who are we to take away the "free-will" of others right?

This post was edited by Dune1 on Apr 24 2010 12:56pm