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Jan 16 2011 08:36am
Quote (Conviction @ Dec 4 2010 07:14am)
god still has control over things


I don't think god has any control. Isn't he all knowing and knows the future? He knows everything that happens in the next 100 years for example.
He cannot suddenly decide to control someone as then his future plan is not right anymore because something unexpected has happened.

They say he lives out of time. Hence before and after doesn't really exist for him. That's a notion we cannot understand so how can we argue for something we don't even know what it is? Am I not suppossed to argue for things I understand?


Lots of religous arguments are based on poor logic and when they receive valid counterarguments that are hard to answer suddenly no more logic is used but it is said we cannot understand this matter but thats how it is.
I mean please make your mind up either use logic or say we cannot understand the world but not rely on logic till it gets difficult and then start explaining matters outside logic in a metaphysical way. Its unfair if a religious person argues like an atheist in a rational manner and when problems arrive says its kind of magic we cannot think into that only god can.

its either religious people are easily convinced of stories or they are just smarter and I am just ignorant of something, being too stupid to understand. Do I have to remain agnostic for ever or can someone enlighten me which way to go?
Tell me how to become a believer and I will try it. What I will not try is to read the bible over and over again and learn it by heart because no matter what it is if you read about a certain matter or hear it repeatedly for a long period of time you will start to believe in it be it right or not. So please give me a valid way to become a believer, an argument or tell me how you started to believe.



If for example my father helps a man and gives him food for a long period of time. Then that man tries harm on my father by putting cocaine in his drink (cocaine can also be given in a food form) for a prolonged period of time. Cocaine eventually as it is known can cause paranoid thinking which is basically that you do not trust anybody. Years later he becomes a child. Lets assume I am that child and I have inherited the paranoia that was caused by the guy mixing cocaine into my fathers drink. As a result I do not trust anything and find it is hard to believe in the bible.
Isn't it that those who pray can clean themselves of sins whereas those who do not pray hence have a disadvantage in that matter. Therefore the guy with parania who most likely will not become a believer has a disadvantage here and will live with his sins. According to religious believers I think they believe it is much better for you to be a believer then not to be a believer. Hence I am much worse of then a believer. Would god allow such unfairness? Its especially odd because its absolutely not my responsibility if a crack head puts cocaine into my fathers drink and I inherit his medical condition! But I will greatly suffer for it.
Now the only way out for a believer is to say "that thats how god thought it to be right and it is right because there are far more things to it I am not aware and incapable of understanding". Imagine you are the believer and you have just said exactly that sentence: that thats how god thought it to be right and it is right because there are far more things to it I am not aware and incapable of understanding". I beg you to think for one moment. When you spoke that sentence out did you say it because you really believed it or because you just wanted to defend your thesis? Its an obvious rethorical question.

It is something deep down in my feeling that tells me when I hear things similar to the one sentence just mentioned that something just doesn't feel right.

This post was edited by White_Light on Jan 16 2011 08:55am
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Jan 16 2011 12:34pm
Quote (White_Light @ Jan 16 2011 02:36pm)
I don't think god has any control. Isn't he all knowing and knows the future? He knows everything that happens in the next 100 years for example.
He cannot suddenly decide to control someone as then his future plan is not right anymore because something unexpected has happened.

They say he lives out of time. Hence before and after doesn't really exist for him. That's a notion we cannot understand so how can we argue for something we don't even know what it is? Am I not suppossed to argue for things I understand?


Lots of religous arguments are based on poor logic and when they receive valid counterarguments that are hard to answer suddenly no more logic is used but it is said we cannot understand this matter but thats how it is.
I mean please make your mind up either use logic or say we cannot understand the world but not rely on logic till it gets difficult and then start explaining matters outside logic in a metaphysical way. Its unfair if a religious person argues like an atheist in a rational manner and when problems arrive says its kind of magic we cannot think into that only god can.

its either religious people are easily convinced of stories or they are just smarter and I am just ignorant of something, being too stupid to understand. Do I have to remain agnostic for ever or can someone enlighten me which way to go?
Tell me how to become a believer and I will try it. What I will not try is to read the bible over and over again and learn it by heart because no matter what it is if you read about a certain matter or hear it repeatedly for a long period of time you will start to believe in it be it right or not. So please give me a valid way to become a believer, an argument or tell me how you started to believe.



If for example my father helps a man and gives him food for a long period of time. Then that man tries harm on my father by putting cocaine in his drink (cocaine can also be given in a food form) for a prolonged period of time. Cocaine eventually as it is known can cause paranoid thinking which is basically that you do not trust anybody. Years later he becomes a child. Lets assume I am that child and I have inherited the paranoia that was caused by the guy mixing cocaine into my fathers drink. As a result I do not trust anything and find it is hard to believe in the bible.
Isn't it that those who pray can clean themselves of sins whereas those who do not pray hence have a disadvantage in that matter. Therefore the guy with parania who most likely will not become a believer has a disadvantage here and will live with his sins. According to religious believers I think they believe it is much better for you to be a believer then not to be a believer. Hence I am much worse of then a believer. Would god allow such unfairness? Its especially odd because its absolutely not my responsibility if a crack head puts cocaine into my fathers drink and I inherit his medical condition! But I will greatly suffer for it.
Now the only way out for a believer is to say "that thats how god thought it to be right and it is right because there are far more things to it I am not aware and incapable of understanding". Imagine you are the believer and you have just said exactly that sentence: that thats how god thought it to be right and it is right because there are far more things to it I am not aware and incapable of understanding". I beg you to think for one moment. When you spoke that sentence out did you say it because you really believed it or because you just wanted to defend your thesis? Its an obvious rethorical question.

It is something deep down in my feeling that tells me when I hear things similar to the one sentence just mentioned that something just doesn't feel right.


hah nicely said

you cant bring all too many facts into religous matter.. its not like god has given a update once in a while :D

regardless of it all its a matter of faith and its a choise to believe, it makes people happy to believe in something
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Jan 18 2011 01:38am
Quote (dizzle19 @ Dec 27 2010 11:16pm)
For one even though it's what you believe technically it says in the bible you rest for awhile UNTILL God comes a second time untill than you are at a long sleep and it says in revelation at the END when God comes again he will decide than who stays in hell and goes to heaven( there is a lake of fire it says. those who havee the mark of thebeast will be thrown in the lake of fire. Because we do not go strait to hell/heaven. And God does not want drugs abused or controlled.


so you can't use drugs for medicinal purposes? i'm sure God created these purposely for man to use in a controlled way
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Jan 18 2011 01:59am
Quote (White_Light @ Jan 16 2011 09:36am)
I don't think god has any control. Isn't he all knowing and knows the future? He knows everything that happens in the next 100 years for example.
He cannot suddenly decide to control someone as then his future plan is not right anymore because something unexpected has happened.

They say he lives out of time. Hence before and after doesn't really exist for him. That's a notion we cannot understand so how can we argue for something we don't even know what it is? Am I not suppossed to argue for things I understand?


Lots of religous arguments are based on poor logic and when they receive valid counterarguments that are hard to answer suddenly no more logic is used but it is said we cannot understand this matter but thats how it is.
I mean please make your mind up either use logic or say we cannot understand the world but not rely on logic till it gets difficult and then start explaining matters outside logic in a metaphysical way. Its unfair if a religious person argues like an atheist in a rational manner and when problems arrive says its kind of magic we cannot think into that only god can.

its either religious people are easily convinced of stories or they are just smarter and I am just ignorant of something, being too stupid to understand. Do I have to remain agnostic for ever or can someone enlighten me which way to go?
Tell me how to become a believer and I will try it. What I will not try is to read the bible over and over again and learn it by heart because no matter what it is if you read about a certain matter or hear it repeatedly for a long period of time you will start to believe in it be it right or not. So please give me a valid way to become a believer, an argument or tell me how you started to believe.



If for example my father helps a man and gives him food for a long period of time. Then that man tries harm on my father by putting cocaine in his drink (cocaine can also be given in a food form) for a prolonged period of time. Cocaine eventually as it is known can cause paranoid thinking which is basically that you do not trust anybody. Years later he becomes a child. Lets assume I am that child and I have inherited the paranoia that was caused by the guy mixing cocaine into my fathers drink. As a result I do not trust anything and find it is hard to believe in the bible.
Isn't it that those who pray can clean themselves of sins whereas those who do not pray hence have a disadvantage in that matter. Therefore the guy with parania who most likely will not become a believer has a disadvantage here and will live with his sins. According to religious believers I think they believe it is much better for you to be a believer then not to be a believer. Hence I am much worse of then a believer. Would god allow such unfairness? Its especially odd because its absolutely not my responsibility if a crack head puts cocaine into my fathers drink and I inherit his medical condition! But I will greatly suffer for it.
Now the only way out for a believer is to say "that thats how god thought it to be right and it is right because there are far more things to it I am not aware and incapable of understanding". Imagine you are the believer and you have just said exactly that sentence: that thats how god thought it to be right and it is right because there are far more things to it I am not aware and incapable of understanding". I beg you to think for one moment. When you spoke that sentence out did you say it because you really believed it or because you just wanted to defend your thesis? Its an obvious rethorical question.

It is something deep down in my feeling that tells me when I hear things similar to the one sentence just mentioned that something just doesn't feel right.


what you're basically getting at i think, is predestination, which is beyond me, and far from me to know because of my finite mind
so through simple deductions, i have come to the conclusion that God is good and if he says anything that is a lie, you can never believe anything he says because his credibility is tarnished
that is the decision that i have made through studying the bible and life experience, sure i've been through alot of shit
and explaining how i got to this conclusion will not only take up precious time that i dont have, but it might be taking up yours as well
but to make a long story short, it boils down to whether you believe in god or not... if you believe in god, then you must believe in him wholy 100% (because what is the point of believing someone 100% who isn't 100% honest)
and when you ask why i believe god is still in control of everything, i believe it because he says it, and that's the kind of faith that is required to believe that he can save my soul by forgiving all of my sins
if i believe he can save my soul like he says, i can believe him when he says he's in control of everything
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Jan 18 2011 11:34am
interesting,,,,
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Feb 18 2011 06:52pm
bump
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Feb 24 2011 10:41pm
i have something to say about going to church to be saved. you can be saved by not going to church but it is going to be hard to remained saved because the devil is going to come at you even harder now that your soul is on the path to heaven. you will not even know if you are doing wrong or right unless you hear the word of God. you need to know the word of God

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Romans 10:13,14
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Feb 24 2011 10:43pm
Quote (cadizzle1392 @ Feb 24 2011 11:41pm)
i have something to say about going to church to be saved. you can be saved by not going to church but it is going to be hard to remained saved because the devil is going to come at you even harder now that your soul is on the path to heaven. you will not even know if you are doing wrong or right unless you hear the word of God. you need to know the word of God

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Romans 10:13,14


So you are going to pick out one verse and think that's all you need to do to be saved?
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Feb 24 2011 10:49pm
Quote (Kisssofdeath @ Feb 24 2011 09:43pm)
So you are going to pick out one verse and think that's all you need to do to be saved?


Honestly guys, all you need is JESUS.
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Feb 24 2011 10:56pm
Quote (Torm1 @ Feb 25 2011 12:49am)
Honestly guys, all you need is JESUS.


I AGREE! I am not saying you cannot be saved if you dont go to church! But like i said, if you do not know right from wrong, the enemy can draw you back in and cause you to backslide. not saying he necesarily will, but it can happen. God's word will help you remain strong in your faith by knowing the promises he gives to you. If you dont study for a test, and you know nothing about the subject, will you pass? Somebody has to teach you for you to learn about it right? this is where a preacher is needed.
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