I am not trying to take a western approach at all. in fact, im trying to do exactly the opposite and forego a western approach where everything is judged by christian rules and standards... there are so many denominations today that it is totally unclear what the original set of christian beliefs as they were meant to be are. this comes back to my point about the bible.... i did not mean in any way that humans today are more sophisticated than humans from the bible days, and totally agree with you that human nature is more or less the same regardless of cultural differences. my point is simply that for writing that has been around for as long as the bible cannot help but have lost/warped its original meaning through translational errors, interpretive differences, and cultural gaps that we today cannot understand about the societies in the bible. i feel that the bible is a great guideline, but taking singular quotes and saying they prove something is never 100 percent correct... you or I or anyone else may very well have the intended interpretation of the quote, or we may be off the mark of what it was trying to say in its original context and writing.

overall, im just uncomfortable thinking that a loving God would send good men to hell because their life circumstances did not give them the opportunity to be "christian". there are great christians and non christians out there, and there are horrible christians and non christians out there. i would hate to see a horrible christian come out on top of a great non christian just because he was exposed to the right religion.

@ bold: Untrue, turns out that from the oldest discovered manuscripts we've found, our year to year translations were nearly identical in every regard. The interpretive issues take a lifetime of study to fully understand, and even then you likely will not.

Regarding your specific issue about a loving God sending "good" men to hell, first you must examine what that really means, both hell, and "good". Again, this falls back on my original response to this issue; if you truly care so much for the fate of your fellow man, then you are to blame if you do not practice what you preach and teach them! All knew God in the beginning, but some chose to turn their backs on God dooming themselves and their children. God doesn't send people to hell, they choose to "go" there. Again, you must examine what hell and good really mean in the context of what the bible teaches you to fully understand this. This may seem "unfair", but that is because you don't see and understand everything in the same way God does. Read the book of Job if you want a humbling account of "fair". If these people are truly right in God's eyes, then there is nothing to worry about, and you have created a ghost under the bed for nothing.

this thread is so uplifting im loving all the good read!

Romans 8

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:

i hope this is a general statement aim'd at those who have a chance to experience jesus and his teachings.

A tribe person not only has to struggle for resources, he has to stand up for what's right without any support. He may fight his entire life for justice. To say he is condem'd as the end... U could have been him.

U want answers? Observe various people for 50 years. For in the people lie the answers. The bible was written by human hand. God uses people.

They'll have a chance. Jesus is coming back to this planet soon with armies of many millions.

No, I think the statement you bolded is not entirely untrue. Even if we assume that the translation is perfect, the cultural difference between the setting of bible times and the setting of today will lead modern people to maybe miss out on some meaning or misinterpret what they read, and there is always the question of subjective interpretation whether you read the bible or any other book etc. Nobody can claim they have the perfect interpretation (though some are probably closer than others) of the bible as God meant it to be as we are all human.... which is why i personally refrain from using bible quotes to support the things i say, because i really think interpretation and application of these quotes just has too much personal influence on it. i definitely get good things out of the bible by reading it, as it is full of advice, wisdom, and encouragement, and this allows for a lot of personal growth in both knowledge and spirit. but i just don't feel right applying bible quotes to argue a standpoint - it is too subject to personal interpretation, and we can never be sure what we quote is really what God originally intended it to mean.

Your argument about people "choosing" to go to hell instead of being sent there is really interesting... i never thought of it that way. So according to what you say, people either "choose" to go to hell (they themselves consciously choose to deviate from christian beliefs), or their ancestors "choose" for them by not passing christianity down their lineage? i guess if you take the general story of what God did to Adam and Eve, ie because of their actions, all of humanity even to this day are paying for it, it makes perfect sense to say this. but im still not sure if i buy this... it makes sense, but how can you be sure that this is how God thinks/operates?

Thank you for your thoughtful replies - I enjoy hearing and learning more about your viewpoint on the issue.


This post was edited by ominkwon on May 24 2011 12:04am

Every man struggles in life. Just because one is in a tribe does not make their life any harder or easier than someone else in the world. Again, if you care so much, then go on some missionaries, otherwise, you only have yourself to blame for lack of action.

Observe man? Okay, he's a fool, that hasn't grown or learned a thing socially or morally in all of recorded history. He repeats all mistakes, again and again. If I compiled the OT chronologies for you, and omitted names and places, you would think it was a retelling of modern history. Some of the passages are so similar as to give you chills on how eerily familiar they are to how man acts today. No, man is not the answer. Man is a self-centered fool.



You have modified your original statement, perhaps maybe just explained it more thoroughly... Understanding the bible is a life-long process, it's not something you can do over a weekend. I agree with you, lots of people misinterpret and abuse bible quotes, whether they are religious or irreligious, but this does not mean you should not use them. One can truly never be sure of anything, and if your supposition is that you must be sure before you act, you will never do anything. This is essentially cowardice. The bible makes it clear that we are not to be lazy, sluggards, etc, but to take steps and act (in faith).



Again, please go back to my original description and explanation of hell. I'll quote from someone who puts it quite well:
"Hell is simply one's freely chosen identity apart from God on a trajectory into infinity." - Timothy Keller

That is to say, if you are in a life full of "me me me" selfishness, whether it's pride, arrogance, self-pity, self-loathing, addictions, whatever, this will continue on in your own personal hell. Our desires outside of God are insatiable, that is to say, you can never get enough and be happy. This is best described with an analogy using drugs, at first it takes small amounts of drugs to have an effect, but over time you need more and more, and become more and more dependent on them, while never truly reaching a point of "good enough". Social/political/economic success is another example, no matter how far you succeed, ultimately it is never enough to satisfy us. These are the sins of self, and they are what is referred to by the "freely chosen identity" above, that continues on into hell. To put it shortly and simply, a workaholic would continue on into hell trying desperately to always attain "more and more", while never really being happy or content. The sin of self is such that people that are in hell don't even realize they are in hell, because they are absorbed in themselves. This fits perfectly with hell being the absence of God, it is allowing man to be whom they chose; a self-absorbed individual without God.

Now, you may say "but I give to charity to help others", etc, but unless these actions are done for the glory of God, they are still being done for yourself in some form, whether it's for your own joy, satisfaction, pride, low self-esteem, ego, etc. This makes them selfish, self-absorbed, even though they were done with "good intentions" to help others. The way I've seen it put is that we all have holes in ourselves that we are trying to fill, with actions, but unless we fill them with God, we are doing them out of self, and they can never truly be filled (re: insatiable desires). Only God can fill those holes, and make one content. Everything else is fleeting and temporary.

In this light, when you read about hell and gnashing of teeth, don't necessarily think about blatant torture, think of it more as the torture that we do to ourselves when we become self-absorbed, the torture of never being able to make ourselves truly happy through our own actions.

As far as how can you be sure? Well, this goes back to studying the bible, which is why I made the first statements above regarding how important it is to really continually apply what you learn from the bible on a daily basis.

agreed

love the example