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May 13 2011 11:28am
Quote (njaguar @ May 13 2011 01:18pm)
Humans are imperfect with regards to sin. Written words from God would not fall under that category. I can perfectly answer many math questions. I can respond to you and use correct spelling and grammar (please, that's not a challenge, just using it in my example). Etc, etc. You're creating a straw man. Again, I will repeat, if you do not believe the bible to be of divine authorship, this conversation is pointless, and I will not spend my time arguing something you will never see.



First of all, nothing is impossible. Second of all, it is not physically impossible to prevent yourself from lusting. Some people may struggle with this more than others, but I assure you, a blind man probably isn't nearly as lustful as you. You're making broad assumptions based upon your own weaknesses. Do not assume everyone has those same weaknesses, to the same degree. Additionally, in the American culture, I would agree that we are faced with this every day, sex is put into our faces on practically every street corner, on television, even on this very forum (avatars/signatures, etc). We are also tempted with many other things, including covetousness (greed/envy), etc. If you lived in colonial times, where everyone was more modest, these things would be no where near of an issue. When you're faced with half naked women everywhere you look, then it's obvious what's going to happen.

Knowing what path you will choose does not mean you don't have free will.As a parent, we often can predict what our children will do before they do it. Does that mean they don't have free will? Of course not. And this is just a simple example, whereas God is outside of time. To God, time is one thing, he is right now at the beginning of time, he is with Moses in Egypt, he is with Christ on the cross, he is here today, and is in the future, all at the same time. We have already explored why you have free will, just because God knows what you will decide before you do (because he is all seeing, all knowing), does not mean he is making the choices for you.


Being lustful is not a weakness, nor is it under voluntary control.

Also your argument against free will is off.
Predicting is not the same as knowing. Your children can still surprise you. You do not KNOW what they will do, they still have free will. However with God, he knows, and has plans accordingly. There is no free will.


This post was edited by Rapture on May 13 2011 11:28am
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May 13 2011 11:28am
Yes but the only reason we make it to Heaven is our own choice to accept Jesus into our hearts. He may know who will pass into heaven, but He also knows that in order for us to do so, we've got to do certain things first. Also, Lusting isn't easy to stop. It's incredibly hard. At least, for me it is. But looking at it as impossible to stop is wrong. It can be done. Looking at it as impossible is just the devil trying to make you think you can't do it. Yes, thinking about Not lusting isn't easy. But try this. If you have a very active church, volunteer your time more often. But in the end, try to be busy. Be busy with anything that you can, because when you are busy, and your mind is occupied, you are not able to think about things like that like you would normally.
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May 13 2011 11:31am
Quote (Rapture @ May 13 2011 01:28pm)
Being lustful is not a weakness, nor is it under voluntary control.

Also your argument against free will is off.
Predicting is not the same as knowing. Your children can still surprise you. You do not KNOW what they will do, they still have free will. However with God, he knows, and has plans accordingly. There is no free will.


There is Free will. If you believe in a Holy God based on His word, then you believe in Free will. He says that we have free will. Yes, He may put things in our lives to help us down the right path, but we can still say no. We can still not go down the right path if that is what we choose to do. God will not force us to do anything. We have the ability to choose things God has laid out for us, or try to do things another way, which, while it inevitably fails, is still free will.
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May 13 2011 11:32am
Quote (OgreDan @ May 13 2011 01:28pm)
Yes but the only reason we make it to Heaven is our own choice to accept Jesus into our hearts. He may know who will pass into heaven, but He also knows that in order for us to do so, we've got to do certain things first. Also, Lusting isn't easy to stop. It's incredibly hard. At least, for me it is. But looking at it as impossible to stop is wrong. It can be done. Looking at it as impossible is just the devil trying to make you think you can't do it. Yes, thinking about Not lusting isn't easy. But try this. If you have a very active church, volunteer your time more often. But in the end, try to be busy. Be busy with anything that you can, because when you are busy, and your mind is occupied, you are not able to think about things like that like you would normally.


God cannot be all knowing and not know whether we will accept jesus or not m8.
You skipped that.

He knows in advance where we are going, whats going to happen, your whole existence, is completely pointless from god's perspective.
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May 13 2011 11:34am
Quote (Rickie @ 13 May 2011 12:24)
You yourself can agree that humans are imperfect. Meaning all of our actions are in some degree imperfect. Written words from God have been rewritten thousands of times over the years, have you read an original bible? has anyone read an original bible? Voiding my argument by not facing it does not solve it. Its the fundamental meaning of your belief, correct? Then defend it with reasoning instead of saying we are imperfect EXCEPT when it comes to one thing...That's pulling straws...


Perhaps you should do some studies into that, and not assume. We have found some very old copies of the bible, that all modern translations are based upon. It turns out that the copies over the years were almost identical to the original, so your thoughts on the matter are wrong, and have been proven wrong. I honestly don't believe you're interested in truth, however, based upon your replies here. I would love to see your proof that there are differences between the original bible and ones we have today. Unless you have that proof, you are assuming, and being argumentative, even though the facts we do know show this not to be the case.

Quote
You're right, in that he is with us, all knowing...but If he already knows who will pass the gates and who will pass into hell, then why do we live our entire life, when he already knows what happens to our souls...Doesn't make sense...


Bolded your question. Answer: Free will. I also already answered this in my other posts. What's the point of a bunch of thoughtless, decisionless drones?

If you're here to start fights, you will be warned for spamming this sub-forum. Based upon your previous replies, that much looks obvious, so I highly suggest you move to the PaRD if you wish to maintain 0% warning.
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May 13 2011 11:35am
Quote (Rapture @ May 13 2011 01:32pm)
God cannot be all knowing and not know whether we will accept jesus or not m8.
You skipped that.

He knows in advance where we are going, whats going to happen, your whole existence, is completely pointless from god's perspective.


I know that God is all knowing, and He knows we will accept or not accept Jesus into our heart. I don't see where in my post I said anything against that. Also, I don't know if you are Christian or not, but what you are saying makes no sense. God loves us each individually. He is with us every day. Our existence is not pointless from God's perspective.
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May 13 2011 11:38am
Quote (njaguar @ May 13 2011 01:34pm)
Perhaps you should do some studies into that, and not assume. We have found some very old copies of the bible, that all modern translations are based upon. It turns out that the copies over the years were almost identical to the original, so your thoughts on the matter are wrong, and have been proven wrong. I honestly don't believe you're interested in truth, however, based upon your replies here. I would love to see your proof that there are differences between the original bible and ones we have today. Unless you have that proof, you are assuming, and being argumentative, even though the facts we do know show this not to be the case.



Bolded your question. Answer: Free will. I also already answered this in my other posts. What's the point of a bunch of thoughtless, decisionless drones?

If you're here to start fights, you will be warned for spamming this sub-forum. Based upon your previous replies, that much looks obvious, so I highly suggest you move to the PaRD if you wish to maintain 0% warning.


Have i brought spamming into this at all, I don't think warning someone for disagree with you is exactly right is it? Im a christian, i just don't agree with everything posted here....


I will look into the Bible translation, we actually had a debate about this in a bible study i was in a few weeks ago...(and it was between two other people)

There is no free will with an all knowing God, if he knows my very thoughts and decisions, why would he care enough to follow them if he already knows every path i choose, every thought that surfaces, it's all predetermined to him, ESPECIALLY if he exists outside of time...

This post was edited by Rickie on May 13 2011 11:39am
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May 13 2011 11:39am
Quote (Rapture @ 13 May 2011 12:28)
Being lustful is not a weakness, nor is it under voluntary control.

Also your argument against free will is off.
Predicting is not the same as knowing. Your children can still surprise you. You do not KNOW what they will do, they still have free will. However with God, he knows, and has plans accordingly. There is no free will.


It is voluntary. You choose to think those thoughts based upon various things. I'll state again, do all blind men struggle with lust? This is one simple obvious example. If it was not voluntary control, then sight should not matter. Do women struggle from lust? Why do we call it a struggle, if it is not a weakness, something we can control to certain extents?

Regarding your second statement, you're wrong. Go buy a novel. Read page one. Read the last page. Congratulations, you know how the book ends. Now read the entire book. Does knowing beforehand mean that you took away the authors free will to write the story, and decide how it ends? Of course not. God is outside of time, and our reality is much the same to him, except that the past, present, and future are all one and the same thing. This is a concept that is difficult to grasp, so I forgive you for not understanding.

Let's define free will. Free will is you making choices for your life. If you don't believe we have free will, then you must believe that God is making every decision for you, and that you are just a robot.
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May 13 2011 11:40am
Quote (Rickie @ May 13 2011 01:38pm)
Have i brought spamming into this at all, I don't think warning someone for disagree with you is exactly right is it? Im a christian, i just don't agree with everything posted here.... Are you also going to warn yourself for responding?


I will look into the Bible translation, we actually had a debate about this in a bible study i was in a few weeks ago...(and it was between two other people)

There is no free will with an all knowing God, if he knows my very thoughts and decisions, why would he care enough to follow them if he already knows every path i choose, every thought that surfaces, it's all predetermined to him, ESPECIALLY if he exists outside of time...


He may KNOW what we are going to do, but it is still US doing it. How is that idea not sinking in for you? YES He KNOWS our choices, but He does not make these choices for us, WE make the choices. It is OUR CHOICE. It is our choice whether to believe or not believe. To get on or off the bus. To take a nap or eat a sandwich. All our choices. Time may mean nothing to Him, but we do. He is happy when we make the right choices, and seek Him. That is why He gave us free will.
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May 13 2011 11:42am
Quote (OgreDan @ May 13 2011 01:40pm)
He may KNOW what we are going to do, but it is still US doing it. How is that idea not sinking in for you? YES He KNOWS our choices, but He does not make these choices for us, WE make the choices. It is OUR CHOICE. It is our choice whether to believe or not believe. To get on or off the bus. To take a nap or eat a sandwich. All our choices. Time may mean nothing to Him, but we do. He is happy when we make the right choices, and seek Him. That is why He gave us free will.


He already knows what we will choose, the moment the choice comes up, especially if he is all knowing, so if he knows our entire life already, then wheres the happiness come from? How can you be happy and all knowing at the same time....sure there is some gratification in being right, But on that spectrum?
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