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Feb 29 2012 08:28am
Quote (njaguar @ Feb 29 2012 11:37pm)
The old testament has many examples of this. Job, for instance has many instances where he proclaims his innocence because he has atoned for his sins (and the sins of his family) through repeated sacrifice, and other proper methods that were prescribed.

Job 1:5 (NASB) When the days of feasting had completed their cycle, Job would send and consecrate them, rising up early in the morning and offering burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, “Perhaps my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” Thus Job did continually.

Recall that in Job 1:1 that Job is described as follows: "There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil." That is to say, he was not without sin, but that he always took the proper courses of action to atone for that sin.

Granted this occurred after Job, it is still a mandate on the matter:
Exodus 20:24 - You shall make an altar of earth for Me, and you shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be remembered, I will come to you and bless you.


I suppose that sacrifice may be the word that is confusing, as it is used in multiple ways. Offering and sacrifice are often intermingled. There were different types of offerings that were supposed to be done, not all were related to sin or sinning.

Also recall that even among those that attended the yearly passover, having supposed to have brought their own sheep/oxen (sacrifice of their flock), they instead would bring money to the temple, and purchase them from merchants that would set up shop to make a profit off of those that would attend and offer sacrifice. This is partly what Jesus was protesting in his visits to the temple and "upturning the tables". Man became spiritually empty, only following the letter of the law. This tended to be worse than someone who merely sinned, as you see through various examples in the NT.
A good illustration of this is Luke 18:9
9 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The OT laws were put in place to assign obedience to God. However, as you know, this simply did not (and does not) occur, due to man's fallen (and dare I say ignorant/arrogant) state. Even in Exodus when God was leading them through the desert, in their presence day and night, they still fell away from Him and the laws prescribed. This illustrates that even if God was actively visible to all (as some proclaim, if only God would just make himself visible, I would believe!), this really is not enough, and man will continue to be self-serving.

The OT was an outline for obedience, and to show that man is not obedient. It shows that history repeats itself, and that sins continues on and mistakes are constantly repeated, as one vain generation rises thinking themselves better and enlightened than the previous merely repeats the mistakes of those from two or three generations ago. More than anything, the OT shows that God is loving and forgiving, to forgive generation after generation for repeatedly ignoring practically everything they were instructed to do. He then proceeds with the greatest sacrifice, that of his Son. Jesus died so that we may live, in spite of God knowing that we are all flawed and that we will all sin.


Thanks for the clearing up. Also at Church right now we do see the pattern of sin repeated many times. They see something, they desire/covet it, they take it and then they try to hide it.

Eve saw the fruit of the tree, desired it because it was pleasurable to the eye, took it and ate it, then she tried to hide from God.

Achan (The book of Joshua) saw some silver and gold as well as a robe from loot that they were specifically instructed not to take for themselves. Anyway Achan saw the loot, desired it and took it then hid it under his tent.

Finally King David did the same thing with Bathsheeba. King David saw Bathsheeba while she was bathing, coveted her because she was a beautiful woman, took her as he sent some messengers to get her but then he tried to cover that he lay with her from her husband by trying to get him to lay with her. When that failed David's second plan was to get Uriah the Hittite killed in battle.

At Church we are seeing the pattern of sin emerging all the time and how nothing has changed since the Fall back in Genesis. Suffice to say, we needed somebody to break the pattern once and for all.
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Feb 29 2012 08:40am
Quote (CPK001 @ 29 Feb 2012 08:28)
Thanks for the clearing up. Also at Church right now we do see the pattern of sin repeated many times. They see something, they desire/covet it, they take it and then they try to hide it.

Eve saw the fruit of the tree, desired it because it was pleasurable to the eye, took it and ate it, then she tried to hide from God.

Achan (The book of Joshua) saw some silver and gold as well as a robe from loot that they were specifically instructed not to take for themselves. Anyway Achan saw the loot, desired it and took it then hid it under his tent.

Finally King David did the same thing with Bathsheeba. King David saw Bathsheeba while she was bathing, coveted her because she was a beautiful woman, took her as he sent some messengers to get her but then he tried to cover that he lay with her from her husband by trying to get him to lay with her. When that failed David's second plan was to get Uriah the Hittite killed in battle.

At Church we are seeing the pattern of sin emerging all the time and how nothing has changed since the Fall back in Genesis. Suffice to say, we needed somebody to break the pattern once and for all.


See, I disagree that the pattern is broken, it is not. I also don't believe that was the purpose, but that without Jesus all hope is lost, because only the sacrifice Jesus made can make up for all the sin in our lives. We are all sinners, and will continue to repeat past mistakes both from history and our own lives. We cannot get to salvation ourselves.
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Feb 29 2012 11:15pm
Quote (njaguar @ Mar 1 2012 12:40am)
See, I disagree that the pattern is broken, it is not. I also don't believe that was the purpose, but that without Jesus all hope is lost, because only the sacrifice Jesus made can make up for all the sin in our lives. We are all sinners, and will continue to repeat past mistakes both from history and our own lives. We cannot get to salvation ourselves.


While we may remain sinners for the rest of our lives, we now strive to not go on sinning. We will fall back into the temptation unless we are transformed and live a life of what God wants us to do. Jesus bridged that gap between us and God. Those who are truly serious about this will strive to do their best to not go on sinning again. That can only be achieved with the help of God and allowing the Holy Spirit to pour itself into us. The result will be us feeling transformed and passionate about the Gospel. Those who may fall away were never transformed in the first place. You cannot have a caterpillar transform into a butterfly only to transform back into a caterpillar.
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Mar 3 2012 09:24am
Romans 2:14-16: (NASB)
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

This seems to say that when those that have not heard about Christ die, they are judged by their hearts. When applied to children, this sounds like a ticket to heaven. Only caveats would be if they are judged by their parents sins, and/or are judged by what future they would have had in the event of them living. Since God knows all, the latter is a possibility. Since God is righteous, whatever the judgment is, it is fair and just.

Just posting this here, in case any of you have any other actual verses regarding this, or these follow up avenues.
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