No, I dont realize that at all. Can you show me how you come to that conclusion? WHY would anyone need to be justified before men??? Doesnt make any sense what so ever to me.

Everything you said still does not change the fact of what James 2:24 says. "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." Are you saying this is not true???

When James 2:26 says, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." Are you saying this is not true? God says "faith without works is dead" He actually says it twice, in verse 17 and 26 so it must be pretty important...are you saying this is not true? Remember God is not the author of confusion - 1 Cor 14:33, there are no contradictions in the Bible. Everything and anything you have said does not disprove anything I have quoted from God's word.


What you quote is being interpreted wrong, for example; you quote Romans 3:20 "because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight." Did you ever stop and think this might be the law of Moses? Go back and pick up verse 19, "19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Who was under the law? Was it the Gentiles, the Samaritans? NO! it was the JEWS, the Jews were under the law. God is telling the Jews they are no longer justified by their deeds.

These baptism prooftexts seem to give more of an implicit suggestion that baptism is required for salvation. However they don't really suggest that salvation occurs AFTER baptism.
Here's an example in Acts 10 where the Holy Spirit is received before baptism.
Acts 10:34 Peter is preaching the word to Gentiles when, in verse 44 the "Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumsized believers who cam with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God."
In verse 47 Peter says "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

Receiving the Holy Spirit is a sign of regeneration and makes you sealed with Him (Eph 1:13). Baptism occurs here AFTER regeneration. After they have certainty that they belong to God because now they are in the Spirit. After they have Jesus inside of them, having been cleansed by faith.

Baptism does not accomplish regeneration, it's commanded because we are saved, not in order to get saved.

Glad this was posted since it led me to read more into it. I can see good points on both sides of the issue as well.

Utimately you will have to make your own decsion on what to believe.

While there are many different baptisms mentioned in the New Testament, there is only one (Ephesians 4:5 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism") that is required today, and it is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit. First, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a promise not a command. Notice the words of Jesus: “Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high” (Luke 24:49). The parallel to this is found in Acts 1:4-5, “And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, ‘which,’ He said, ‘you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.’” One obeys a command, not a promise.

Second, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is recorded only twice, in Acts 2 and 10. When Peter returned to Jerusalem, he recounted the conversion of Cornelius to the rest of the church. In Acts 11:15, he said, “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.” Many would like to change the phrase “at the beginning” to “from the beginning.” That small change would indicate that the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurred continually throughout the entire period. But, the text says what it says.

In the end, the New Testament still teaches that we must be baptized to be saved.

I don't understand how you think Ephesians 1:13 is related to baptism.
Ephesians 1:13
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Again, the Holy Spirit is a promise, not a command.

You say that, "Baptism does not accomplish regeneration, it's commanded because we are saved, not in order to get saved." Can you show me where in the Bible this is taught?

I HAVE PUT MY WRITING IN A DIFFERENT COLOR IN RESPONSE:


I believe the verses included in this (long) response have covered commands to become baptised, but I am not convinced that baptism is required for regeneration.

Sorry for the lengthy response, this is not an easy topic and cannot be resolved simply by quoting verses. This needs a train of thought that takes multiple accounts into consideration, being objective as possible to let the scriptures speak for themselves. I find verses that fit the paradigm that you MUST be baptized to be saved, HOWEVER, they seem to be contrary to other passages. The paradigm that baptism is not a requirement of salvation does not have to solve problems from other passages and can be supported by these same verses. At least, that's how I see it. I am very thankful for the opportunity to discuss these things in an open forum and for believers like you who's convictions are strong. They cause us to look deeper into God's word and learn more about who God is.

This post was edited by uptoolayte on Sep 5 2011 08:18am

Wow, lol. Books can be written on the subjects we are talking about yet we try to limit our questions and answers to prevent a "tldr" response. I praise you on your efforts.

I have written on baptism of the Holy Spirit on this forum before and it, in itself was very lengthy. So we both agree receiving the Holy Spirit is a promise. Let us ask ourselves, "does a condition exist or is something required of us to receive that promise?" You already mentioned Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." According to God's word here we must repent and be baptized FOR the remission of sin to receive the gift. I honestly don't see how this clear statement can be argued against. Would a person say this is a false statement? Now, what is the gift. To me, the gift is the understanding of the word of God and the hope of eternal life. Next you mention that since belief is not among the commands given by Peter you don't think the commands are in no particular order. To me, this doesn't make any sense what so ever. Now, would it make any sense forthe multitudes who Peter preached to, to repent and be baptized if they first didn't believe?? Just because all the commandments for salvation are not included doesn't give any less weight to what was said and in the order that it was said.

Next you mention the Ethiopian eunuch. To have a better understanding let us go back and pick up verses 34 to 39.

Acts 8:34-39

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

In verse 35 Philip started preaching to the eunuch. We do not have a record of what was said BUT Philip must have mentioned baptism by water for in verse 36 the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” How would the Eunuch have known this if it wasn't preached to him? If baptism by water wasn't significant why is it even mentioned? It is mentioned because it is one of the requirements from God man must obey to be saved. You are simply not saved until baptism takes place.

On a side note repent is not mentioned. Do you think the eunuch wasn't saved because the scripture doesn't say he repented? Of course not, I'm saying this beause you mention belief was not among the conditions in Acts 2:38. You have to search the scriptures for all of God's commands for salvation, not pick and choose and put them in your own order.

Now, for Mark 16:16. In your first statement you say,"This IS true that he who has believed and has been baptized is saved." This is correct and I am happy you said it. Later on you say, "Also reading the next verse it says "but he who has disbelived shall be condemned." Notice is doesn't include baptism here. When the Bible points out something contrary it usually includes all the factors in question. Why doesn't this verse say "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved AND has not been baptized shall be condemend"? I believe Jesus left out baptism here for a reason. This verse as well as the others does not violate the belief that baptism is not required for salvation.
I do not mean any disrepect to you and I commend you on your thoughts and how you conduct yourself during this discussion. However, I believe you may be confused about this verse as many have been. Just because it doesn't say "but he who has disbelieved AND has not been baptized shall be condemend" doesn't mean, "but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned" is false. Do this, clear your mind and say this, He who disbelieved shall be condemned. True or False. The obvious and correct answer is TRUE, if you don't believe you are condemned, simple as that, nothing else needs to be said. Why would baptism have anything to do with it????? Why would a person want to be baptized if he didn't believe in the first place????

As you said in your last sentence, I am also very thankful for the opportunity to discuss this with you in a civilized manner. If we can bring a non-believer to the point of believing then that is success even though we don't agree on the necessity of baptism.

Good responses good sir, I would like you to respond to the acts 10 account though. Also the areas where eternal life is mentioned without baptism being mentioned. The only reason why it seems like I'm picking and choosing is in light of these examples where baptism occurs after the Holy Spirit indwelling. The verses you responded to here make sense from your paradigm, but reading these verses from my paradigm make baptism a command but not a requirement of salvation. I agree you have to search the scriptures for all of God's commands, which is why I mentioned romans 8, Ephesians 1 where salvation is spoken of but without any mention of baptism. There are many areas where baptism is absent from very important verses that speak of the process of being saved. If baptism were a requirement it seems to me that the Bible would speak of it explicitly, not implicitly, especially in light of contrary examples namely, the book of Acts. If you can clear up those accounts, then I would see the verses that speak of baptism a bit differently.

Please see my reply in the other discussion regarding Acts 10.

You concur that baptism is a command. Take note of what John 14:15 says, "If you love Me, keep My commandments. Also, what is the difference in a command and a requirement? Neither a command nor a requirement are optional. Regarding baptism, if the Bible, the inspired word of God, mentioned the command or requirement of baptism for salvation EVEN ONCE, should we obey it? Please take note of the following verses. Of course, please read the verses before and after if you wish, don't take my word for it.

John 15:14
14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Acts 10:48
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Luke 7:30
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:16
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 22:16
16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Romans 6:3-4
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Galatians 3:26–27
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Peter 3:21
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I just want to say one more thing to wrap this up.

Would we say the blood of Jesus saves us? Of course we can. If it wasn't for the shedding of blood there would be no sacrafice for our sins. Now, how does one come into contact with the blood of Christ?

The blood of Jesus saves us from our sins: the blood was "shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28). What does baptism have to do with the blood?

Peter preached, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38). Note that the expression "for remission of sins" is the same as in Matthew 26:28. Jesus shed His blood for the remission of sins. How can both be true?

The answer is in Romans 6:3-4: "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." This tells us that when we are baptized into Christ we are baptized into His death. We contact Christ's blood when we obey the gospel and are baptized into Christ.

What saves us? The blood of Jesus. How do we avail ourselves of the blood? Through baptism into Christ. Is baptism a work of our own merit? No. We simply must submit to the will of God. Now, how can the necessity of baptism be denied?

Jesus gives us many commands that are not requirements of salvation. What I'm saying is that the Bible is explicit about our belief in the Son as a requirement of salvation, while repentence, baptism, and a host of other things are commands God has given to live once we have accepted Him and received Him. Since the Bible shows us that people were saved before they were baptized, I can only conclude that baptism is an important command that accompanies salvation but is not required by it. Again, I'm not sure how your previous statement addressed this issue.

Also there are places in the Bible where salvation is spoken of that include belief in Christ but not mentioning baptism. I have given a couple of those but others can be found as well. Baptism is a part of following Christ, but 1 John tells us how we KNOW we can have eternal life and baptism is not mentioned at all.

We are talking about the commandment/requirement of baptism. Think about this for a moment, if Acts 2:38 tells us to" Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" and you say that baptism is not needed then it would also be correct to say repentance is not needed. After all, both are joined together by the conjunction "and" which places equal importance on both as a requirement for what...for the remission/forgiveness of sin.

Also, I cannot find any place in the Bible that teaches one is saved before baptism.

I'm saying neither are required for regeneration, only believing in the Son is required. Repentence and baptism are results of a regenerate Christian. When I get home from work I will give you examples of the Bible talking about salvation with the absence of baptism.