Obviously there are things you cannot control, therefore how can you ever fight against it? Lusting is natural, on a pure level. it is a basic, pure emotion geared towards reproduction, which is what we were created for (partly at least, as we were created to worship Him) but how would we create more servants without lust? Hell i'm christian but i don't believe in marriage. Lusting is natural, yes you should attempt to control it, but by the bibles standard, even "checking" someone out is lusting, therefore sin, especially if that person is not your signifigant other (even married..) and that's ridiculous. Men nor women can control that urge, without years of discipline, and even then its a slip up. Why would God create something that could never possibly follow his own standards? that just doesn't make sense, therefore your argument is invalid... Also you mentioned frustration, anger etc, these are also natural, and any human being experiences them. They are not, on the other hand, geared specifically towards knowledge and relationship towards God. Sure you feel empty, but it doesn't automatically make you want to reach out for God, it makes you want to feel less lonely. Loneliness usually leads to finding a significant other, which is also natural, for reproduction...
Why create Free Will if all you want is worship? doesn't make sense. Why create emotion if you only want a few of them to come into play? Choice is too complex for worship, it leads you astray too easily.

We all lie. We all are prone to many forms of sin. If these things did not exist, there would be no good/bad, and no free will. If nothing is a sin, then it is not possible to sin, and there is no choice, it was chosen for you. While your views obviously differ from the bible, you cannot claim your own morality. If you believe in the Christian God, then he is the judge, not you, not I. It is a fallacy to think that you can choose which sins are acceptable and not. My understanding is that all sin is equal in the eyes of God, whether it is lying, cheating, lusting (which is essentially adultery/covetousness), stealing, murder, etc. We are all sinners before God. Why would he create us when we cannot follow those standards? Because if we could follow those standards, there would be no free will. There are many passages and scriptures about struggle, and why constantly working on your weaknesses is important. It's working towards the things that are difficult that makes you who you are. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. We each struggle with various things, and must work at them on a daily basis. This by itself is a very lengthy conversation, but I wanted to point out where you're upside down on this. If you do not agree to simple Christian doctrine, then there is no chance you will agree to anything based upon said doctrine.



Your question is "why create free will if all you want is worship?", but yet you answered it entirely in this quote. If there was no free will, what would be the purpose of that worship? You can build some simple mechanical robots that follow you around, bowing and kneeling before you, and even replaying recorded sounds in the form of praise, but will you get satisfaction from these pre-programmed robots? That is what humans would be without free will. It might serve as a short term curiosity, but ultimately it would be utterly useless. The robots have nothing to gain, nothing to learn, and you gain nothing through their non-free-will actions. (Yes, you could argue that maybe you learned something about robotics, or such, but let's assume for arguments sake that you are all knowing like God, and such knowledge is already thoroughly attained).

This may actually be a very valid example, if you go from 1 Corinthians 10:31: "Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." -- we were made so that we could through our own choices and decisions, our own unique ideas and abilities, our creativeness and lovingness, bring glory to God.

At my Church, my Pastor explains it like this... God isn't some all powerful being ready to smite us if we do wrong, He is a loving father. He doesn't force us to do things because He wants us to make the right choices. He doesn't force us to worship him because He wants us to wish to do that ourselves. When we meet God in heaven, I want him to look at me and say good and faithful servant. I know that I'll never be able to be perfect, and that I'll never be sinless. But sin is Gods enemy, so if I love God, I should do my best to not sin. Plain and simple for me.

If you do not believe the bible is of divine authorship, you will never believe what anyone tells you with regards to what is contained therein. It is fruitless and pointless to argue with you, if this is your view and stance.



Are you trying to say there could be partial free will? That doesn't make any sense. Either you have free will or you don't. There are no shades of gray there, it's black and white. We are not perfect, cannot be perfect, and this is the basis of Christianity, and why Christ died on the cross. Again, without all these conflicting things in our lives, we would not have free will!

Human nature tends towards what is easy. If all of this was easy, then we'd all gravitate towards it, naturally, and we would no longer have free will, because again, the path would have already been chosen for us.

Well I think that just about sums it up....

God may know what choices we will take, but they aren't chosen for us. They are our own choices. Always have been. Also, it is never impossible to stop yourself from Lusting. With God, anything is possible. Lusting is something that I've struggled with. I still do. Some days I actually can avoid it. Some I can't. It's not impossible. As it is, it's made hard so we seek God even more. Seeking Him because we know we are incapable of doing it ourselves.

Humans are imperfect with regards to sin. Written words from God would not fall under that category. I can perfectly answer many math questions. I can respond to you and use correct spelling and grammar (please, that's not a challenge, just using it in my example). Etc, etc. You're creating a straw man. Again, I will repeat, if you do not believe the bible to be of divine authorship, this conversation is pointless, and I will not spend my time arguing something you will never see.



First of all, nothing is impossible. Second of all, it is not physically impossible to prevent yourself from lusting. Some people may struggle with this more than others, but I assure you, a blind man probably isn't nearly as lustful as you. You're making broad assumptions based upon your own weaknesses. Do not assume everyone has those same weaknesses, to the same degree. Additionally, in the American culture, I would agree that we are faced with this every day, sex is put into our faces on practically every street corner, on television, even on this very forum (avatars/signatures, etc). We are also tempted with many other things, including covetousness (greed/envy), etc. If you lived in colonial times, where everyone was more modest, these things would be no where near of an issue. When you're faced with half naked women everywhere you look, then it's obvious what's going to happen.

Knowing what path you will choose does not mean you don't have free will. As a parent, we often can predict what our children will do before they do it. Does that mean they don't have free will? Of course not. And this is just a simple example, whereas God is outside of time. To God, time is one thing, he is right now at the beginning of time, he is with Moses in Egypt, he is with Christ on the cross, he is here today, and is in the future, all at the same time. We have already explored why you have free will, just because God knows what you will decide before you do (because he is all seeing, all knowing), does not mean he is making the choices for you.

You're right, in that he is with us, all knowing...but If he already knows who will pass the gates and who will pass into hell, then why do we live our entire life, when he already knows what happens to our souls...Doesn't make sense...

Also...Lusting is completely natural, it's like trying not to urinate, how well does that go over? the mere thought of not lusting leads to lusting.

This post was edited by Rickie on May 13 2011 11:25am