You have posed an intriguing hypothetical situation. If ever such a scenario did actually exist, God will decide your case with mercy and fairness. But this fails to address the relevant matter at hand: first, what God requires of you personally; second, your ability to respond rightly to what He has said. People are not lost just because they have not been dunked in water; they are lost because they refuse to obey God when given opportunity to do so. How do we know you did not have an opportunity earlier in life to be baptized for the remission of sin? Have you? Given this, what is your response to God's offer for your salvation?

The Bible, "God's word", says what it says. Your arguement is with God, not with man.

I'm not sure what opportunities earlier in life to be baptized have to do with anything. My hypothetical situation exposes the legalism in the view that you MUST be baptized to be saved. The more detailed the hypothetical situation becomes, the more legalistic that view becomes. For example, let's take this hypothetical situation farther:

Someone goes to a church, is convicted, hears the message, accepts Jesus, repents of sin. Baptism aren't held until next sunday. During this week the new Christian does everything he can to learn more about Jesus and worships in the best way he knows how. Sunday comes and tragedy strikes, the new Christian dies before his baptism. Would the act of water immersion equated to this man's salvation an hour later? Or was his faith enough to count him as one of God's own before becoming baptized? If baptism is absolutely neccessary; AS neccessary as belief in Jesus to become saved, then this man would not have received God's mercy and pardon for his sins.

Why would a person WANT to wait a week to be baptized? Nobody in the scriptures waited a week to be baptized that I know of. If you wait a week to be baptized I would question the reason for being baptized. To me, it is clearly not for the remission of sin as recorded in Acts 2:38. It would be possibly for placing membership in a church, or for that outward expression of an inner faith or something like that, that is falsely taught. This is another way of saying we should be baptized because our sins are already forgiven. But the Bible nowhere teaches salvation before baptism.

My statement in post #21 still stands. If you have had the opportunity to be baptized but deny it then you are putting your faith in your own hands. That is why when you hear the word, you believe what you hear. You then repent of your sins and turn away from sin. Next you confess Christ is the Son of God before man and you are IMMEDIATELY baptized for the forgiveness of sin. A person DOES NOT wait around to be baptized.

Well for those churches who hold baptisms once a month, what is one to do? What if you accept Jesus in a place where a pastor and a pool are not readily available? My statements about acts 10 also stand where there are 2 clear examples of people receiving the Holy Spirit before baptism. I'm anticipating your responses to those

To answer your first sentence I, again, would have to say seek another church, say a Church of Christ; they wil baptize immediately. Some things are hard to understand and I do not profess to know or have all the answers. We simply have to believe God is a just and merciful God.

And now for an explaination of Act 10

In Acts 10, we are introduced to a godly man, named Cornelius (Acts 10:1-5). Cornelius is instructed to send for a man named Peter. Cornelius immediately dispatches trusted men to invite Peter to his home. Meanwhile God gives Peter a puzzling vision (Acts 10:9-17). The key point of the vision was a warning, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." (Acts 10:15). The men from Cornelius arrived at the same time the vision ended. The Spirit instructed Peter to go with the men. Some of the brethren from Joppa accompanied Peter on the trip (Acts 10:23).

When Peter arrived he told Cornelius, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for" (Acts 10:28-29). Cornelius then explains why he sent for Peter and concludes, "So I sent for you immediately, and you have been kind enough to come. Now then, we are all here present before God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord." (Acts 10:33).

Peter then presents a lesson to Cornelius and his household, but in the midst of that lesson the Holy Spirit falls on those gathered just as He had done at the beginning of the church (Acts 10:44-48). "All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God" (Acts 10:45-46). They were amazed because the pouring out of the Spirit came upon Gentiles. They were amazed because this was the second time that this event had happened. Peter comments on this unusual event, "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'" (Acts 11:15-16). Peter was reminded of the words of Jesus, which he had not thought about in a while. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was not an everyday occurrence. It had only occurred twice: on the day of Pentecost and at the teaching of Cornelius' household.

Please notice that the coming of the Spirit did not make Cornelius good or religious. Cornelius was "a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually" (Acts 10:2) before God spoke to Cornelius through an angel. It was his deeds that brought him to the attention of God (Acts 10:4). He enjoyed a good reputation among mankind as well (Acts 10:22). Many claim that men are born so depraved that they cannot become religious without the intervention of God. Yet, here is a religious man, who because of his good deeds God takes notice and selects him for a special purpose. Even with his good deeds, he was not saved because he was instructed to send for Peter to learn what God would have him to do.

The Spirit did not produce faith in Cornelius when He came upon his household. Peter said the faith was produced by the message he delivered. "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe" (Acts 15:7). The purpose of the Spirit's coming was to be a witness to their faith. "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us" (Acts 15:8). Even though faith is something that cannot be seen, God revealed what was inside by the sending of the Spirit. Nor did the coming of the Spirit cleanse them of their sins. "He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:9).

Please take note of this important point. The baptism of the Spirit did not save Cornelius and his household. The salvation came by the words which Peter taught. "He reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, 'Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household'" (Acts 11:13-14). Paul later confirms this when he stated, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16).

Yet even after being baptized by the Spirit, Peter commanded Cornelius and his household to be baptized. "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." (Acts 10:47-48). You see, Peter was there to tell Cornelius and his household how to be saved. "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:11). Only in Jesus can anyone obtain salvation and the way into Christ is through faith and baptism. "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:26-28). Far too many desire to separate faith from baptism, but it is the combination that saves. "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be save" (Mark 16:16).

A better question is to ask why God sent the Spirit to these Gentiles? As we have shown, the Spirit was not sent to bring salvation. We are given a hint by Paul. "But I have written very boldly to you on some points, as reminding you, because of the grace that was given me from God, to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit." (Romans 15:15-16). The offering of the Gentiles became acceptable because it was sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Do you remember God's warning to Peter not to call unclean what God called clean? The coming of the Spirit proved God's acceptance of the Gentiles. They were set apart (sanctified) for salvation.

Paul tells us that the gift of speaking in other languages (tongues) "which was a gift from the Holy Spirit" was a sign for unbelievers (I Corinthians 14:22). Even though brethren from Joppa had accompanied Peter, they did not believe the Gentiles could be saved. The gift of speaking in other languages was a sign to these unbelievers that God did plan to save the Gentiles. Later this same witness convinced other brethren who questioned Peter's right to go to the Gentiles. "And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those who were circumcised took issue with him, saying, "You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them." But Peter began speaking and proceeded to explain to them in orderly sequence, saying, ... "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."" (Acts 11:2-4, 15-18). God bore witness to the Jewish Christians that there was no distinction between Jew and Gentile. "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith." (Acts 15:8-9).

I know this was long but it can't be explained with just a few sentences and get the full point across.

Again I have not claimed that the Holy Spirit caused salvation, I'm saying it is a result of salvation. If the Holy Sprirt has been received, you are already saved. That's why this verse is so important. It shows people receiving the word, receiving the Holy Spirit, then becoming baptized. I'm saying they were sa, received because they received the word, believed and as a result of now becoming regenerate, received the holy spirit. After that they were baptised.

I don't think the statement of yours that I put in bold is true and here is why. Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit to prove to the Jews that the gentiles were accepted by God. Cornelius and his household were not saved before or at the point they received the Holy Spirit. Again read this "quoted from above". Please take note of this important point. The baptism of the Spirit did not save Cornelius and his household. The salvation came by the words which Peter taught. "He reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, 'Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household'

Now, what did Peter say? Yet even after being baptized by the Spirit, Peter commanded Cornelius and his household to be baptized. "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." (Acts 10:47-48). You see, Peter was there to tell Cornelius and his household how to be saved. "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:11). Only in Jesus can anyone obtain salvation and the way into Christ is through faith and baptism. "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:26-28). Far too many desire to separate faith from baptism, but it is the combination that saves. "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be save" (Mark 16:16).

Mark 16:16 says, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved;" belief and baptism are joined together by the conjunction "and" which places equal importance on both words. How can one condition be required while the other is not if the two conditions are equal?

I have enjoyed our discussion but I must get into bed as I have a long drive in the morning.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat that I am not saying the Holy Spirit is responsible for anyone being saved. I'm saying if you have the Holy spirit, then you already have been saved. It's a reult of being saved. We See Cornelius and all those who listned to Paul receive the Holy spirit, which means they already had accepted the Son and were saved. Baptism followed AFTER they received the Spirit in both cases. Again in both stories, they are saved by the words that peter spoke, then received the Holy Spirit, then are baptized. perhaps the question is now, is the dwelling of the Holy Spirit a result of someone being saved? I believe I have provided verses that conclude this, what do you think?
Drive safe and talk to ya later!

obviously I am not doing a very good job of getting my message across. I guess I am going to have to approach this from a different angle. Just because Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit doesn't mean they were saved. This is what you are saying in the bold section from above To prove this I will attempt to explain exactly when the Holy Spirit came upon them and when Cornelius heard the words from Peter on how he could be saved.

I know, one of the strongest arguments that can be made on the theory that one is saved before and without water baptism is based upon the conversion of Cornelius in Acts 10 in the light of what Jesus taught in John 14:17. I am suprised you haven't mentioned John 14:17 yet. This is how it usually goes, "Jesus said in John 14:16-17, "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, event the Spirit of Truth: Whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: ye know Him; for He abideth with you, and shall be in you." Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before he was commanded to be baptized in water. Therefore, Cornelius was not of the world but a child of God before he was baptized in water."

The above is specious reasoning, it looks good on the surface, but will break down under the light of the Scriptures. First, it contradicts Acts 11:14 which states that Peter would speak unto Cornelius "words whereby he would be saved." He could not have been saved until he heard the words. He had to hear the words before he could believe (Acts 15:7), and his heart was not purified until he believed (Acts 15:9). Now when did the Holy Spirit fall on Cornelius and his household? From Acts 10:44 we read, "While Peter yet spake hese words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the Word." He fell during the sermon, "while Peter yet spake," but from this passage we cannot determine whether He came in the first, middle, or conclusion of Peter's sermon. The next chapter of Acts leaves us in no doubt because in it Peter "rehearsed the matter from the beginning and expounded it 'in order'" (Acts 11:4). To his Jewish audience in Jerusalem, Peter tells exactly when the Holy Spirit fell. Note in Acts 11:15, "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning."

The Holy Spirit, therefore, fell when Peter opened his mouth, of at the beginning fo his speech, before the words which saved Cornelius could have been spoken. Since "faith comes by hearing" (Romans 10:17), the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius before Cornelius believed or before he repented. It is not enough to say he received the Holy Spirit before water baptism. He also received the Holy Spirit before he believed or repented. Now, if the ability to speak by means of the Holy Spirit, qualifies the person as a child of God then Cornelius was a child of God or saved:

1. Before the words whereby he was to be saved were spoken to him.
2. Before he could have believed (Acts 11:7).
3. Before he repented.

When you deny the efficacy of water baptism and remove water baptism as being essential to salvation, it also removes faith also in the case of Cornelius. All Bible believers know that "without faith it is impossible to please God" (Hebrews 11:6). Thus their speaking by the Holy Spirit did not prove they were children of God, unless one would also claim that they were saved without believing. After they received the Holy Spirit, (as I have said before, which was to enable them to speak in tongues and convince the Jewish disciples present, that the Gentiles were eligible to receive the gospel) they were then shown the necessity of believing and being baptized in order to be saved, just like Jesus commanded previously in Mark 16:16.

Now, one may ask, if John 14:17 cannot be so applied to Cornelius to make him a child of God before water baptism, just what does it mean? In this discourse, Jesus was addressing the twelve. He was soon to leave them, and knew that they would feel that they were "as sheep without a shepherd." He wishes them to know they should not be left orphaned. He tells them, "I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter."The word "Comforter" is a translation from the Greek word paracletos which is used only four times in the New Testament and that only in His private address to the twelve, found in the 14th, 15th, and 16th chapters John. It is never applied to the work of the Holy Spirit in relation to mankind in general or even to the church in general. The paraclete was an infallible guide. Speaking by Him, the apostles did not contradict each other. Among other things He was to teach them all things, bring to their remembrance all things Christ had spoken unto them, convict the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment to come; guide them into all truth,
and show them the things that were to come. The Comforter continued with the apostles till the end of their ministry and through them gave to mankind the New Testament, "the perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25). It is quite obvious to me that Cornelius did not receive the Holy Spirit in the sense the Lord promised it to the apostles in John 14:17.

It is also true that Cornelius later received the ordinary gift of the Holy Spirit, (not miraculous,) which comes to every Christian. This is promised after obeying the conditions of salvation including water baptism for the remission of sins. "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). In this sense the Holy Spirit comes to all those that obey Him. Acts 5:32 says, "And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Repent and baptism are just two of the commands by God required for salvation. Now, would it be a sin to disobey God?

If the ability to speak by means of the Holy Spirit makes the possessor a child of God then what about these?
1. Balaam prophesied against Balaak by the immediate direction of God (Numbers 23,24). Did that make him a child of God?
2. The Spirit of God came upon King Saul and he prophesied. Yet God rejected Saul as a wicked king (I Samuel 10:10).
3. The lying prophet of Bethel was enabled by the Spirit to foretell the sad fate of the man of God, whom by falsehood he had seduced from the Word of the Lord (I Kinggs 13:11-32).
4. A dumb animal, Balaam's ass, spoke by the Holy Spirit (Numbers 22:27). Did that make the dumb animal, which had no soul, a child of God?
5. Caiaphas, the wicked high priest, spoke "not of himself" that one man should die and not the whole nation. He held the office of high priest by Roman appointment. Was he a child of God, just because we have a record of the Holy Spirit's speaking through him on one occasion (John 11:41-52)?

In the above cases the Holy Spirit merely used hese parties as mediums for God's speaking to man or impressing upon him some important lesson. So it was in the case of Cornelius. If he had to hear words by which he would be saved (Acts 11:14), he could not have been saved by the words until he heard them. As the Holy Spirit fell on them, as Peter began to speak (Acts 11:15), it follows that they had not heard the words when the Holy Spirit fell on them, and hence were not saved at that time. In Acts 10:48, Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. On Pentecost baptism "in the name of Jesus Christ was for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). Thus Peter understood water baptism in the name of the Lord to be for (in order to) the remission of sins and this is what he commanded Cornelius and his house to do since he said, "God put no difference between us and them" (Acts 15:9).

This is really about the best I can do to try to explain that Cornelius was not saved BEFORE he received the Holy Spirit. Even Acts 2:38 says "Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Repent and baptism comes BEFORE receiving the Holy Spirit. It says it right there. Always remember, there are not contradictions in the Bible.

I hope it helps. Take the Bible while you read this and look up what has been said. I hope you will read it all and study with a sincere heart. I also hope the color is not distracting but brings my message together with better understanding.

Lol! you don't need to be baptised to be saved, it is just a profession of faith, i'm guessing you are catholic? And you think baptism is haveing water sprinkled on you by a "priest"?

That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

You posted this yourself, don't be naive.

This post was edited by ChrisKz on Sep 7 2011 05:44am