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Jun 7 2011 11:08am
Quote (njaguar @ Jun 6 2011 05:01pm)
You're right, we'd be mindless robots.


Which is more perfect, though? The fact that we can think for ourselves? Or maybe a more perfect human would be one without free will.

Which free will is kind of a cop out anyway. If God knows everything that can and will happen, then does that really equate to free will by human definition?

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Jun 7 2011 11:38am
Quote (Thandrend @ Jun 7 2011 01:08pm)
Which is more perfect, though?  The fact that we can think for ourselves?  Or maybe a more perfect human would be one without free will. 

Which free will is kind of a cop out anyway.  If God knows everything that can and will happen, then does that really equate to free will by human definition?


There's a lot of complexities with the last part you said. For one it does say in the bible that he knows everything that can and will happen in some wording but at the same time most branches of the Christian church are not 'fatalists'. I personally am Christian, but I do not believe he knows what I will do. To me he is omniscient in the sense that for every possible action I can make he sees how things around me can possibly react. A lot of the problem is people look at the bible, they read it word for word, and they make it a black and white result. If I remember correctly - it says in the bible that you can only live to a specific age twice. Both of the numbers were also different. Parts of the bible to me should be taken literally while others should...well not be taken literally :P The bible is God's word, and even he has the right to change his opinion. I.E. Permissible foods - I'm sure you are aware that the Jewish faith has more dietary restrictions than Christians, but the only difference between us is that Christians add the new testament into our bible. I won't get into the specific reason as to why our dietary restrictions are much more lax but the end part of it is that basically God changed his mind.

I apologize in advance if anything I said was too drawn out or if I had any bad points in there. I just woke up and am still tired because I worked late last night :P Purpose of this is just to mainly give you a different POSSIBLE perspective. There are many more opinions and beliefs. This is just what came to my mind.
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Jun 7 2011 01:05pm
Matrix, good answer. It's reasonable. Hats off to you.

However, the enigma I'm presenting to you is, if he doesn't know what you will do, then is he perfect?
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Jun 7 2011 02:06pm
Quote (Thandrend @ 7 Jun 2011 14:05)
Matrix, good answer.  It's reasonable.  Hats off to you.

However, the enigma I'm presenting to you is, if he doesn't know what you will do, then is he perfect?


He is omnipotent and omnipresent.

Knowing what will happen does not take away free will. If you buy a book, skip to the end, read the last chapter to see how it ends, did you take away the free will of the author who wrote it to decide how it will end? No, of course not. God's position outside of time and space operates in a similar fashion. Merely because he can skip to any point in time to see what is going to happen does not mean that we are not free to "write each page" as we go along. To him, the beginning, right now, and the end are all a single thing, unbound by time as we know it, much the same that you can read the start of a book, then the end, then the middle, if you so desired.
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Jun 7 2011 02:15pm
Quote (njaguar @ Jun 7 2011 04:06pm)
He is omnipotent and omnipresent.

Knowing what will happen does not take away free will. If you buy a book, skip to the end, read the last chapter to see how it ends, did you take away the free will of the author who wrote it to decide how it will end? No, of course not. God's position outside of time and space operates in a similar fashion. Merely because he can skip to any point in time to see what is going to happen does not mean that we are not free to "write each page" as we go along. To him, the beginning, right now, and the end are all a single thing, unbound by time as we know it, much the same that you can read the start of a book, then the end, then the middle, if you so desired.



Well I'm stumped. I had a good argument for omnipotence and lost it in a call I had to take. I'll get back to you on that. :P
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Jun 7 2011 02:21pm
fear
the greatest persuader of all time
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Jun 7 2011 02:46pm
Quote (Thandrend @ 7 Jun 2011 15:15)
Well I'm stumped.  I had a good argument for omnipotence and lost it in a call I had to take.  I'll get back to you on that.  :P


It's becoming increasingly clear that you're in the wrong forum. Use the PaRD for such topics.
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