I think we are kindof making the same point. Either way you can go to Haven without being baptized that is a fact. i may be forward but are you Catholic or?

Nope I'm not. Catholics do not believe in immersion, I do. There is a huge difference in immersion and sprinkling. Also, you and I are not saying the same thing. It is also not a "fact" what you are stating. The bible clearly states that you are not forgiven or receive the gift of the Holy Spirit without submitting to baptism. That is fact. You cannot enter heaven without being forgiven and without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Anyways, Luke 23:39-43 NIV "One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him, "arn't you the Christ?" save yourself and us!" But the other criminal rebuked him, "don't you fear God?" he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong" Then he said, Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Jesus answerd him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in Paradise."

So is Jesus a liar?

Also,

Acts 10:

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."



This post was edited by spazy2 on Sep 11 2012 08:52pm

Please keep in mind that the Jews before Jesus' death were still under the mosaic law which did not include baptism. Jesus implemented baptism as part of the Great Commission (after his Resurrection). The apostles took this Commission and did just that.. BAPTIZED every convert. Peter preached about it in Acts 2:38 and also declared that baptism is necessary in order to have your sins forgiven and in order to have the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1. We don't know if the thief was not baptized. John the Baptist and the apostles were baptizing people left and right in that region and he very well could of been baptized.
2. He was not under the New Law that Jesus established since Jesus was still alive.
3. Jesus had the power to forgive people of their sins in person. (as we saw on many accounts)




They received the Holy Spirit "just as they had".. (speaking about the apostles). There were certain instances where people received the Holy Spirit the same way as the apostles (which was meant to empower that person with the ability to perform miracles).

References -

dunno about you.. but I certainly didn't have the spirit come into me like that... it was different for them (this is what Peter was referring to).

Some believe that the "just as we have" is pertaining to the gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit now as well. It very well may pertain to that.. I however believe that the gentiles received the Holy Spirit in the same manner as the apostles since in both accounts affirm that they spoke in tongues (again something I did not do when I received the Holy Spirit). I believe the difference in the Holy Spirit they received was the ability to perform miracles.

This post was edited by Dune1 on Sep 11 2012 09:04pm

Jesus is alive around us just as much as he was back then. He trancended Death and is Alive still. So just because his flesh isn't on earth does not mean he can't forgive us. Also, what you are saying is limiting the powers of our God, which God has the power to do anything wether he is in flesh and blood here on earth or in heaven.

Here is more scripture sir.

Ephesians 2:8-9 it says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” --- doesn't mention anything about Baptism

Romans 10:9 it says, “That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” --- nothing about Baptism

Colossians 1:14 it says, “in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins” It isn't the act of Baptism that saves us or the "water" it is the Blood of Christ

Acts 10:

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." ---- This is after the "new law" you were talking about.

What happens when there is no water available for baptism? Suppose a lost soul brings Jesus into his life on his deathbed; could he be baptized with something other than water, such as milk, wine, or saliva? Would the unbaptized soul not go to heaven for the absence of water? Or what about the wounded soldier in a foxhole or a sailor facing certain death on a sinking ship? If he cries out with his dying breath, "Lord, have mercy on me; forgive my sins," but cannot be baptized, is he doomed to go to Hell? Why is baptism left out of so many verses explaining salvation? For example, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everone who believes" (Romans 1:16), does not mention baptism.

I am not limiting the power of God at all. I am simply stating that Jesus had the power to forgive instantly, which he did. No baptism required. If baptism were not required for forgiveness now, it would not be mentioned numerous times in the NT. I am not in the habit of battling scripture with one another (like you are doing). Below, I will list out numerous scriptures that deal with baptism as well. The difference between you and I is that I keep the New Testament in it's entirety and do not pick out scriptures to stand alone.

Also, saying this "well what if the person is on their death bed" scenario is pretty weak. I am not here to talk about the illogical "what if" scenarios. I am here to preach what the bible says, and allow God's grace to take over. If God wants to forgive someone who has not been baptized, that is up to his own power and grace. I however will continue to preach the good news as it has been written. I have personally baptized a person on "their death bed" so that is not an excuse for me.

You can choose to deny these verses all you want.. but they are permanently written in the bible. You cannot explain them away with other texts that say "confess with your mouth and believe with your heart". They are ALL relevant and required. You cannot pick and choose what you want to do and what you do not want.

Verses -

Mark 16:16
16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

John 3:3-5
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:38
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16
16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

1 Peter 3:21
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


There are many more scriptures that deal with baptism.. but these should be plenty sufficient. Notice how in many of these "repentance" and "belief" are not mentioned. Does that mean they are not required for salvation? No... because we know there are other areas of the bible that cover those issues.

SO i am battling with scripture and what did you just do? so i presented scripture that says you don't need to be baptized and you presented scripture that says the othewise. And you took excerpts out just like i did. So sorry but it seems the bible supports both our claims, i will need to do more research on this topic. Either way we both have been baptized so we are both good i guess lol. But this has been in all good intention and i need to look into this more. but i encourage you to do the same. You also cannot deny the scripture that stated in my previous post. I cannot deny yours either. Thank you for the good debate.

The bible DOES support both our claims. Which is why I believe it ALL must be done. You clearly see that the bible supports baptism yet you are turning your head away from it. I have not ever said that the scriptures you provided are not required. I think they are. Just as baptism is (and is supported through scripture).

I hope I have not offended you. Certainly not my intention.

This post was edited by Dune1 on Sep 11 2012 09:48pm

A relationship with Christ isn't a prayer. Going to church or reading the bible doesn't make you a Christian. It makes you a moral person. Salvation, grace, redemption cannot be condensed into a prayer. Salvation comes by realizing our depravity, and acknowledging Christ as the king of kings. The Alpha and Omega. Yeah, the sinner's prayer isn't biblical, but essentially that is out first step in faith, BELIEVING that the creator of all loves us enough to hear us. Baptism is essential. Going to church and reading the scripture is a a result of said faith. When we do these things to gain some sort of favor with God, we are just walking as the Pharisees walked. Which is living by the law. Paul says in Galations that "when I lived by the law, i was also condemned by it". Again in Romans 4 he says "if salvation were for those who follow the law, then faith is not necessary and the promise of Christ is pointless".
When we truly know Jesus. When we experience grace and taste him for the first time, scripture says that we are "a new creation". Not saying that we will live perfectly, because we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. But meaning that we will have a DESIRE to know him more intimately. We will want to get into the text. We will long to talk with him. We will crave the community you get by being around a body of believers. This is what it looks like to truly know Christ.

As far as people knowing more. Just as with anything, some will know more than others. Knowing more about Jesus comes by spending time in prayer, and in studying his word. But in the end, Francis Chan says it wonderfully, "we are like balls of clay, trying to tell other balls of clay what the potter is doing".