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Aug 11 2011 06:32pm
Quote (nate86 @ Aug 11 2011 01:48pm)
Sorry for double post, just wanted to add a little.



I don't see where he questioned it. He agreed that we need to be baptized, he just disagreed on the medium of that baptism.
Read I Peter 3:21 again, for example.

1 Peter 3:21
New International Version (NIV)
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[a] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Footnotes:
a. 1 Peter 3:21 Or but an appeal to God for a clear conscience


Notice there that the water symbolizes the actual baptism.
So far, I have not seen a passage that says water is required for baptism. Water is a symbol, it is not the actual baptism. Symbols are good, but not necessary for salvation. Old testament rituals and symbols might have been required, but they sure aren't required now.


Exactly, the thief beside Jesus on the cross didn't have time to be baptised in water. But Jesus promised him: "Today you will be with me in paradise."
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Aug 13 2011 06:16pm
Quote (Pious @ Aug 2 2011 06:31am)
Found this all typed up and thought I would share.




"First, one must HEAR the gospel message. Romans 10:17 states: "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. In this passage the message is the gospel and the word of Christ is God's word which today is given to us through he Bible.

"If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciple. Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free." (John 8:31, 32). In the truth lies freedom from eternal condemnation. Jesus commands his disciples to go and preach the gospel to all creation - the reason: The salvation of their souls.

Next, one must BELIEVE the message that they have heard. "Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." (Hebrews 11:6) Faith or belief is essential. However, we will see that faith only is not God's plan for eternal redemption.

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16) "As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, 'Look here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?' Philip said, 'If you believe with all your heart, you may.' The eunuch said, 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." (Acts 8:36,37). In these passages we see that baptism is essential to salvation and belief is necessary for baptism. One will also note that in the account of the Ethiopian eunuch, he first heard the gospel message.

Thirdly, one must REPENT of their sins. Repenting means to not only be remorseful for one's sins, but to do a 180 degree turn from one's willfully sinful life. Jesus himself states very clearly the necessity of repentance to one's salvation: "But unless you repent, you too will all perish." (Luke 13:3,5b) Other scriptures showing the necessity of repentance are:

Acts 2:38 "Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 17:30 "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent.

2 Peter 3:9b "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Another part of God's plan of salvation is to CONFESS Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Again, let us look at the words of Jesus himself: "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven." (Matthew 10:32,33) There is no middle ground, one either owns or disowns the Savior and there are consequences for either action.

Paul tells us in the letter to the Romans: "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." (Romans 10:9-10) As one examines scripture it is seen that hearing the word is essential, believing the word is essential, repenting of one's sin is essential, and the confession of Jesus Christ as the Son of God are essential, for eternal salvation. Let us continue to examine the entirety of New Testament writings to determine the rest of God's plan of salvation.

BAPTISM is essential to salvation. Scriptures we have already examined that show the necessity of baptism are Acts 2:38, Acts 8:36-37, and Mark 16:16. Other passages revealing this necessity of baptism for the forgiveness of one's sins:

1 Peter 3:21 "...and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also - not the removal of dirt but the response of a good conscience towards God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Acts 22:16 "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."

Romans 6:3-5 "Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

In conclusion, we see that one must examine all of scripture to determine God's plan of salvation. There are decisions to make and actions one must take. Therefore, one must be of an age to comprehend these things. Those who are not yet old enough to do so do not stand condemned before God. This is so beautifully stated in Matthew 18:3 by Jesus himself: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." When one accepts God's gift of salvation they take on the innocence of a child!"


Very well said and accurate. But, unfortunately it is difficult to change most peoples minds in here. I have started back on the forum after a few months because of a job change and partial relocation.

People will not accept the fact that God says baptism is required even though it is commanded in several passages.

Jesus told the apostles, just before He left earth to retun to the Father, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whol creation. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but the that disbelieveth shall be condemned" Mark 16:15-16. And why people will argue with Him, I just dont know. To the many who claim that baptism is not needed, tell it to Jesus on judgement day.

As for water not being required for baptism... if water is not used then what is required to be baptized? This question is for the person with the Mtn Dew avatar. BTW, your name is so blury it is not readable.

I do not like the NIV, I dont think it is a good translation at all. Here is 1 Peter 3:21 from the NKJV

1 Peter 3:21
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The fact is baptism does save us and it is a water baptism and water is required to accomplish this. Baptism is complete submersion in water.

Pious says it all perfectly.
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Aug 13 2011 06:20pm
Quote (Torm1 @ Aug 11 2011 07:32pm)
Exactly, the thief beside Jesus on the cross didn't have time to be baptised in water. But Jesus promised him: "Today you will be with me in paradise."


Torm, have we not went through this one several times? You still not getting it? I'm going to watch some TV right now. I'm sure Pious can answer this but if he don't, when I come back I try to find my old reply and repost, if I can't find it I will explain it all over again even though I know it will not do any good.

BTW, I seen on your first reply where you may think Pious is me but you are mistaken.
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Aug 14 2011 10:32am
Quote (Kisssofdeath @ Aug 13 2011 05:20pm)
Torm, have we not went through this one several times?  You still not getting it?  I'm going to watch some TV right now.  I'm sure Pious can answer this but if he don't, when I come back I try to find my old reply and repost, if I can't find it I will explain it all over again even though I know it will not do any good.

BTW, I seen on your first reply where you may think Pious is me but you are mistaken.


Well, considering you're a member of CofC church, i now see more why you are so adamant on it.

As for me, I'm a member of Christ's Church, but not the CofC denominational physical church, but the body of Christ.
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Aug 14 2011 12:24pm
Quote (Torm1 @ Aug 11 2011 07:32pm)
Exactly, the thief beside Jesus on the cross didn't have time to be baptised in water. But Jesus promised him: "Today you will be with me in paradise."


Let us address the thief on the cross. The following is a composition of the gospel accounts:

“Then they crucified Him ... And they put up over His head the accusation written against Him: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS. Then two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and another on the left. And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads and saying, "You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross." Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders, said, "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, 'I am the Son of God.'" ” (Matthew 27:35, 37-43).

“Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."” (Luke 23:39-43)

First, let us note that we know little of the background of the thief. We know that he believed that his punishment was just. He knew he was a thief and he was willing to acknowledge that it was wrong. We also know that this thief knew of Jesus’ teachings. Think about what the man had said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” Jesus was dying on a cross right beside him! Yet the thief understood that Jesus would be receiving a kingdom and apparently he understood that it was a spiritual kingdom (John 18:36). Somehow I don’t think this thief gained this depth of knowledge during the short time he was hanging on the cross with the Lord.

Hence, we arrive at the second notable item. The Scripture does not record for us whether the thief had been baptized. We know that John had been baptizing in Judea for several years and the gospel of John also relates, “After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized” (John 3:22). At little later in John we find, “Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), He left Judea and departed again to Galilee” (John 4:1-3). A large number of people have been baptized, so we cannot state with certainty that the thief was not baptized. However, given that he was an admitted thief, it does seem unlikely, unless he was one of those who fell back into the ways of the world after becoming a follower.

We must also acknowledge that Jesus is the Lord. As the Son of God, he had the authority to make exceptions. As Matthew records, “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.” (Matthew 28:18).

Another item of interest is that people point to the thief’s salvation because he acknowledged his belief in Jesus, but I know of no one who claim the remainder of the circumstances of this man’s salvation must also be followed. After all, this man hung on a cross besides the Son of God. In order for you or I to be saved like the thief, would we not also need the opportunity to hang on a cross beside the Lord? Of course, that cannot happen because Jesus is now enthroned in Heaven. “But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified” (Hebrews 10:12-14). While we can express our faith as the thief did, we cannot match the remainder of the thief’s situation.

Finally, we must understand that at the time of the thief’s salvation, the new covenant had not been inaugurated. “And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives” (Hebrews 9:15-17). How the thief gained salvation prior to the death of Jesus and the beginning of the new covenant does not impact how people are saved now that the new covenant is in force.

The Scriptures consistently teach that salvation is only through Christ. “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). Jesus warns that the way to heaven is narrow. “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:13-14). In pointing out the unity of Christianity, Paul stated, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Ephesians 4:4-6). Notice this. There is only one church. There is only one faith. There is only one baptism. The Bible does not teach that there are multiple roads to heaven. It emphasizes that there is only one. Rather than looking for a possible exception to the rule, does it not make sense that we would strive to follow the rule?
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Aug 15 2011 08:30am
Quote (nate86 @ Aug 11 2011 03:48pm)
Sorry for double post, just wanted to add a little.



I don't see where he questioned it. He agreed that we need to be baptized, he just disagreed on the medium of that baptism.
Read I Peter 3:21 again, for example.

1 Peter 3:21
New International Version (NIV)
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[a] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Footnotes:
a. 1 Peter 3:21 Or but an appeal to God for a clear conscience


Notice there that the water symbolizes the actual baptism.
So far, I have not seen a passage that says water is required for baptism. Water is a symbol, it is not the actual baptism. Symbols are good, but not necessary for salvation. Old testament rituals and symbols might have been required, but they sure aren't required now.


It does call for water, To be immersed....Sounds like it calls for water to me. You cannot just pick and choose what you want to take from the bible, or how you want to interpret it. It's there. We follow it

Story of the ethiopian eunuch

When the carriage arrives at some water, the eunuch exclaims, "Behold water! What is hindering me from being baptized?" (NIV Why shouldn't I be baptized?).

acts 10: 47-48
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

That as well.
Good luck tho ;]



Quote (Torm1 @ Aug 11 2011 07:32pm)
Exactly, the thief beside Jesus on the cross didn't have time to be baptised in water. But Jesus promised him: "Today you will be with me in paradise."


Jesus had not died yet. There for the old law was still in effect.
Meaning he did not need to be baptized.

And it was Jesus himself who said what he said. That alone should make you never question it.

This post was edited by Pious on Aug 15 2011 08:38am
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Aug 15 2011 09:31am
Quote (Pious @ Aug 15 2011 07:30am)
It does call for water, To be immersed....Sounds like it calls for water to me. You cannot just pick and choose what you want to take from the bible, or how you want to interpret it. It's there. We follow it

Story of the ethiopian eunuch

When the carriage arrives at some water, the eunuch exclaims, "Behold water! What is hindering me from being baptized?" (NIV Why shouldn't I be baptized?).

acts 10: 47-48
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

That as well.
Good luck tho ;]





Jesus had not died yet. There for the old law was still in effect.
Meaning he did not need to be baptized.

And it was Jesus himself who said what he said. That alone should make you never question it.


Jesus was the first one to die.
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Aug 17 2011 08:08am
Quote (Torm1 @ Aug 15 2011 10:31am)
Jesus was the first one to die.



But he wasn't dead when he told the thief he was saved......

Meaning baptism was not necessary...
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Aug 17 2011 08:36am
Jesus is looking down on you all and facepalming because what you are doing, bickering about this in a disrespectful way towards each other is exactly the same thing he tried to abolish with the pharisees and their legality.

Paul says in Romans 14:

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant. To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

If someone is convicted that Baptism is necessary, let them be baptized. If another believes not, let them live with their beliefs.
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Aug 17 2011 08:39am
Quote (Diligence @ Aug 17 2011 09:36am)
Jesus is looking down on you all and facepalming because what you are doing, bickering about this in a disrespectful way towards each other is exactly the same thing he tried to abolish with the pharisees and their legality.

Paul says in Romans 14:

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant. To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

If someone is convicted that Baptism is necessary, let them be baptized. If another believes not, let them live with their beliefs.




Not arguing. Answering his questions..

Thanks tho.
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