I have a question for you: Can someone receive the holy spirit and not be saved?
before answering read Ephesians 1:13-14


Here you go, took me awhile on this one to try and find the best way to get the message explained. Either you accept it or you don't simple as that.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

"In whom ye also trusted"

This is Christ, mentioned in the previous verse. "go read it"

"after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation"

The word of truth is defined as being the Gospel of salvation. Note that the text says "after that ye heard."

"in whom also after that ye believed"

Notice it says "whom" and not "what" Whom is a person, therefore it must be Christ. After you heard the Gospel, and after you also believed in Christ. In other words you believed both the Gospel and Christ.

"ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise"

The sealing by the Holy Spirit of promise occurred after they both believed in the gospel and in Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit of promise is the same gift of the Holy Spirit spoken of by Peter in Acts 2:38-39. If you choose not to believe this, then that is your choice.

Acts 2:38-39
(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
KJV

This promise of the Holy Spirit was received after the converts were baptized, in water, for the remission of sin. Many today say that belief only and not baptism is implied in Eph 1:13. Many people overlook the fact that the apostles regularly used the word believed with the act of baptism as being understood to have happened.

Acts 19:2-3
(2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
(3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
KJV

The Ephesian converts mentioned in Acts 19:2-3 were just such an example. Paul asked them "unto what were ye baptized?" This question was posed after he asked them if they received the Holy Ghost since they believed. Couple this with the fact that in Acts 2:38, Peter instructed the converts to repent and be baptized, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost which is the promise unto them and their children.

The Holy Spirit of promise is received after repentance and baptism for the remission of sin.

Other scriptures that refer to the Holy Spirit of promise are:

Eph 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV
2 Cor 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
KJV
Gal 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
KJV
It is significant that in the case of the Holy Saviour himself, the Spirit did not descend and remain upon him until after he was baptized. Why, then, should it be thought strange that the blessed Holy Spirit of promise in view here is exactly that mentioned by Peter on Pentecost, the promise that belongs to all of those in all times whom God shall call unto himself?

Why should it be thought strange that the Holy Spirit was promised only to believers who would repent and be baptized?


The word "sealed" carries the meaning of being "stamped with a signet or a private mark, either literally or figuratively, for security or preservation. See Strong's definition of NT4972.

John 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
KJV

Jesus Christ Himself tells us that belief alone is not enough to receive His gift of everlasting life.

Eph 1:14
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
"Which is the earnest"

This is a description of the Holy Spirit of promise mentioned in verse 13. Verse 13 and 14 are a single sentence separated only by a comma in the KJV. The word earnest is translated from the Greek word "arrhabon" (ar-hrab-ohn'); of Hebrew origin; a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest.

"until the redemption"

The word "until" looks forward to something in the future. The thought here is of earnest money, or a down payment, given in advance for the redemption of the purchased possession. This redemption has not yet taken place at the time of this writing for the recipients of this epistle, who are identified in verse 1 as the "saints which are at Ephesus." This looking ahead to a redemption in the future by the saints which are at Ephesus dispels any allusions of any modern day Christian receiving their full redemption at the moment of their conversion.

"of the purchased possession"

The purchased possession is His church, (Acts 20:28), There is only one body and Christ is the head and the members of the body are those who are "in Christ," (1 Corinthians 12:12-13). The Church and the body of Christ are one and the same, (Ephesians 5:23). We who are "in Christ" are His purchased possessions. He has given us a down payment in the Holy Spirit of promise "until" the time of redemption.

You can either choose to accept or not, the choice is yours.

my response to acts is above, my response to mark 16:16 is:
Jesus says "whoever does not believe will be condemned." Why wouldnt he say "whoever does not believe or is not baptized will be condemned?"
Again i think he is talking about the baptism of the holy spirit, not a physical water baptism.

Let me ask you a question, why would anyone get baptized in the first place if they didn't believe to start with? That goes without saying. God does not need to mention "or is not baptized" because believing is the first step. But if you choose to believe otherwise that's up to you.

So you are saying that when jesus said " For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence" that only applied to the apostles at Pentecost? That is where you are wrong.
Read Acts 11:15-18

No, you are are the one mistaken. That has been proven in my last reply. I won't repeat it again, go read it if you need to.

First of all Peter said this, not God. I posted my response to acts at the beginning.

I honestly couldn't believe this when I first read it. You are saying God did not say this? The entire Bible is God's word, nothing was left out and nothing needs to be added. The Bible is God's word written through man. You cannot pick what you want, you cannot swap words around or exchange one word for another! Still amazes me now as I type this you say it's not from God.

This is worthy enough to discuss further, I will copy and paste from above and add to what I have said to get my point across. Quoted from last post I said,
Do you think we should ignore other parts of God's word that is required such as repentance and baptism for the remission of sin? Acts 2:38 says, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" NOW! are you saying that Acts 2:38 leaves out part of what is required for salvation? I think anyone who reads Acts 2:38 will realize that in order to have their sins forgiven will be required to repent AND be baptised. This is so plain and simple, how can anyone think this is not a requirement to be saved WHEN GOD SAYS IT IS!!!

Now if you notice, repent and baptised are joined together by the conjunction "and", this places equal value on both words "requirements". One word "requirement" is as important as the other, there is no other way it can be. What you are telling everyone is, repent, have your sins forgiven then get baptized? How can this be? Since both repent and baptized are joined together and of equal importance you might as well say "your sins are forgiven, now you can repent AND be baptized". You or anyone else cannot decide to separate those two words. Both are requirements for forgiveness. You need to take a very serious look at this. I have made my point very clear. There is no need for me to justify this any further. You either choose to believe or not believe.

About the thief on the cross. You say.
That is weak. Everyone there knows what jesus proclaims to be. The sign over his head, the other criminal, the roman guard etc. They all know it.
This man was a criminal, i think the chances of him going out and being baptized by John are extremely unlikely. Even if he did though, John's message was REPENT. John himself said "i baptize you with water for repentance" so if the criminal was baptized and didnt repent what good was the baptism?

Again, read what I said above.

The rest is to AsianChexMix

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power ~1 Corinthians 1:17

The apostle Paul is addressing the problem of factionalism in the church at Corinth. Some of those Christians were inordinately enamored with the person who had immersed them — even to the point of adopting the baptizer’s name as a religious title (1 Corinthians 1:12-13) — a practice not dissimilar to the common habit of wearing human titles in the modern world of "Christendom." In view of such a perversion, Paul expressed thanksgiving that he had personally immersed only a few of these people (1 Corinthians 1:14-16). It was within this context that he wrote: "For Christ sent me not to baptize" (1 Corinthians 1:17). Baptism was not the problem; it was the perverted practice of certain Corinthians that warranted rebuke. The apostle was not disassociating himself from the importance of baptism as a component in the plan of redemption (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Galatians 3:27; 1 Peter 3:21); rather, he was contending that no special adoration was to be attached to the person administering the rite.

Since Paul himself was immersed in order to have his sins "washed away" (Acts 22:16), and inasmuch as he taught that by means of baptism one enters "into Christ" (Romans 6:3-4; Galatians 3:27), he certainly is not about to disavow the divine command as an element apart from the gospel.

It is a perversion of the scriptures to use 1 Corinthians 1:14-17 in an attempt to nullify God’s holy commandment to be baptized (Acts 10:48).

Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples ~John 4:1-2

I'm not quite sure what you are needing here. This is a simple verse that really needs no explaination.

Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, ‘Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold.’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost ~Luke 19:8-10

Are you saying Zacchaeus was not baptised? I would ask, how do you know he was not?



Wouldn't the need for mentioning baptism be required in these verses as well?


If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation ~Romans 10:9-10
Wow, you know what. I just noticed Faith was not mentioned? Does that eliminate Faith as a requirement for salvation too?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek ~Romans 1:16
OH NO! now confession is left out. Does this eliminate confession as a requirement for salvation too?

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise ~Ephesians 1:13
Do I need to say anything here?

AsianChexMix, you need to search all God's word for everything needed for salvation. I will leave it with this.

The scriptures reveal to us what we must do in order to be saved. Since Jesus was the one who died upon the cross for us, let's notice the instructions that He gave.


Believe: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

Confess: "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven" (Matt 10:32-33).

Repent: "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

Be Baptized: Jesus set the example in Matthew 3:13-17 and said, "...thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness" (vs 15). "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16).

Continued Obedience: "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15).

I believe this topic has ran its course. Either one believes what I have tried to explain or one chooses not to. I hope you will search the scriptures diligently.

my posting of Ephesians 1:13 wasnt to convince you, it was to lead to another point; and it is this.

you stated

"This promise of the Holy Spirit was received after the converts were baptized, in water, for the remission of sin."

But now i want you to go read Acts 10:47-48
Here, the word of God states "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have."
These people "have received the Holy Spirit" and have not been baptized with water.

That should be the end of this discussion.

I honestly couldn't believe this when I first read it. You are saying God did not say this? The entire Bible is God's word, nothing was left out and nothing needs to be added. The Bible is God's word written through man. You cannot pick what you want, you cannot swap words around or exchange one word for another! Still amazes me now as I type this you say it's not from God.

This is worthy enough to discuss further, I will copy and paste from above and add to what I have said to get my point across. Quoted from last post I said,

lol, you completely exaggerated what i said. I never at any time said it wasnt from god all i said was the words left peters mouth. I was simply being a smartass. The words came out of peters mouth, therefore he said it, whereas other times in the bible words come out of god's mouth.

I believe the entire 66 books of the bible are god-inspired. Where humans that were being led by the holy spirit wrote it onto paper. I believe the entirety of the word of god.

Again, you have missinterpreted what Holy Spirit means. Please read starting from verse 44. Now?

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

But you are exactly right, this should put and to this once and for all.

Why did you fail to leave out Acts 10:48? Let me quote it. And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.(Acts 10:48).

LOL, does it get any clearer than THIS! Let me repeat it. And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. IS THIS NOT A CLEAR COMMANDMENT FROM GOD? If not, why not? He says it is. Are you going to say God is not correct here?

Yeah, that should put it to rest. Honestly just let it go. If you don't want to believe baptism forthe remission of sin is required by God then that's between you and God on judgement day.

Yes you did, you said, "God did not say this". Now you are trying to correct it.

Like I said above, just let it go. You just dig your hole deeper with every reply.

i just showed you an example of people who "received the holy spirit" and had not been baptized by water. How can you argue this?
48 just supports my viewpoint: They had received the holy spirit; now it will be good for them to publicly acknowledge their decision through water baptism.

In my opinion it is you that refuses to see the truth of scripture.



How am i digging my hole deeper? God did not say this, the words left Peters mouth; therefore he said it. I believe they were God inspired words, but Peter physically said it. I'm not trying to correct it, i dont need to. Peter is talking therefore he said it. There are plenty of times in the bible where God physically says things. That is all I'm saying. I dont see how you cant understand this.
As i said before I believe everything in the bible is god inspired.

This post was edited by bryce722 on Feb 15 2011 07:18pm

You are not a reasonable person to have a discussion with. You ignore clear commandments of God. Nothing I say will change your mind and nothing you have ever nor ever will say will change mine. I will pray for you because I know in my heart you are lost.

Why must you put me down? I'm sorry if you were offended, I am simply looking for a good biblical discussion. I state what i see as the truth of scripture.
pray for both of us. That God would continue to mold our hearts after him and that we would continue to pursue him daily. All we can do is seek answers in the Bible, through prayer and wise counsel.
My advise to you: never be so proud to think that you have 100% figured out something that is a highly debated scriptural topic. Always admit that you could possibly be wrong. This is good counsel that i have received and i want to pass it on. Notice i say things such as "In my opinion." But i am not at that place either and it is something i am working on.
Thanks for the prayer, I will pray for you as well.

One question: what do you mean by lost?

I was not going to take the time to find this answer because I know you will not believe or accept any of it anyway. In the end I decided that was not the way to be. I had to get help answering this but here it is.

Acts
Verse 44
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on them that heard the word.

This event actually occurred "as Peter began to speak," being intended not to save Cornelius (for Peter would tell him "words whereby he and his house should be saved" as in 11:14), but for the purpose of convincing Peter and his companions that the gospel should be preached to Cornelius and company without reservation or prior requirement. It is in the necessity for this that the unique character of this entire episode is evident.

Regarding the fact of the Holy Spirit in this instance falling upon people who had not been baptized, whereas on Pentecost the promise of the Holy Spirit was made to depend upon the repentance and baptism of believers, many strange and untenable theories have been erected. Trenchard, for example, thought that here, "The Pentecostal baptism was extended to Gentile believers on the sole ground of repentance and faith." However, there is no mention of repentance in this passage; and, as the Spirit fell on them "as Peter began to speak," it is incorrect to say that they were "believers" when that occurred. It is a mistake to make this unique occurrence a normal Christian experience. Murray-Beasley was certainly correct when he declared that:


This gift of the Spirit without baptism must be viewed as exceptional, due to a divine intervention in a highly significant situation, teaching that Gentiles may be received into the church by baptism, even when they have not removed their uncleanness through circumcision and sacrifice.
It is that "exceptional situation" that must be emphasized here. The divine manifestation of the Holy Spirit falling on those Gentiles of Cornelius' household was not for the purpose of saving them, in any sense, but for the purpose of convincing the apostle Peter and his companions of the propriety of welcoming the Gentiles into the church of God upon the same conditions as everyone else.


Whatever the relationship between baptism and the gift of the Spirit elsewhere in Acts, there appears to be no doubt as to the intention of Acts 2:38; the penitent believer baptized in the name of Jesus Christ may expect to receive at once the Holy Spirit, even as he is assured of the immediate forgiveness of his sins.


Verses 45, 46
And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

The outpouring here was like that on Pentecost (Acts 11:15), only in this case it was not upon the apostles, but upon those who were hearing an apostle. The clear intention was that of sealing absolutely the reception of Gentiles into the church of Jesus Christ upon the same basis as others.


Verses 47, 48
Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Commanded them to be baptized ...
Peter did not jump to the conclusion, as many moderns have done, that "Glory be; this does away with baptism altogether".

It was impossible for the apostles to associate the gift of the Holy Spirit with anything but baptism; the new converts were immediately baptized.
Moreover, the fact that baptism for Gentiles was necessary to their salvation, no less than it was declared to be on Pentecost, appears in the facts (1) that an angel of God told Cornelius that Peter would tell him words whereby he would be saved (Acts 11:14), and (2) that in all of the words spoken by Peter there was but one commandment, that requiring them to be baptized.

To answer your question, I am not judging you. I regret I said you are lost, I do not know your state of spiritual condition. However, I do know what Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 say. God is a just God and will judge accordingly. If any person has not been baptised for the remission of sin, God says that person is not saved. On judgement day we will all know the truth.

BTW, I was in a baptist church for a long time and was taught just like you are now. I seen the error of my belief and my preacher. I had a lot of pride but I did admit I was wrong once but I won't admit it now. I was not brainwashed from the beginning, I have been on both sides and I believe the Church of Christ is correct in their teaching. If you believe differently then I respect that as God gave man free will to choose as he wants.

Well i enjoyed our discussion. When i read Acts 11:1-18, I see it as baptism is not required for salvation. When you read it, you see that baptism is required. As you said neither one of us would most likely change our views that we are confident of based on an internet discussion.
I have been baptized with water, so based on my beliefs or your beliefs i will be in heaven, that is why i asked why i was lost.
Although we do not agree on this important issue, it is good to know of other people on jsp pursuing the Lord through scripture and trying to figure out his will.
May God bless you and fill you with the holy spirit.