man is born as a sinner... even a baby cries to get attention... that is sin because he is crying for self attention and love... it's human nature...
the age of accountability is when the child truly realizes the difference between right and wrong... it's different for each person .. and for some people it can be vastly different

to make a long story short... god knows everything.. he is omniscient so ofc he is going to be a righteous judge if he knows all your deepest thoughts and imaginations

sorry brother this is not true, we are born into sin.

Hmm, well, what about the mentally disable? What if they can choose to have faith but they can't fathom the idea?

I would crack up if I went to hell and saw a bunch of babies running around in fire.

Yes, I'm sure you would be laughing...quite positive laughter would be the last thought on your mind bud.

ive seen many misconceptions about sin in this thread so just to clarify, all people are born with sin

Romans 5:12-21 (New American Standard Bible)

12Therefore, just as through (A)one man sin entered into the world, and (B)death through sin, and (C)so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

13for until the Law sin was in the world, but (D)sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned (E)in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a [a](F)type of Him who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of (G)the one (H)the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by (I)the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand (J)the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned (K)through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will (L)reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18So then as through (M)one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one (N)act of righteousness there resulted (O)justification of life to all men.

19For as through the one man's disobedience (P)the many (Q)were made sinners, even so through (R)the obedience of the One (S)the many will be made righteous.

20(T)The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, (U)grace abounded all the more,

21so that, as (V)sin reigned in death, even so (W)grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes, babies are sinners and should all be aborted before they can come into this world to do the devils work.

The key word in all those verses is men. Infants are not men.

Let me try and break it down more simply for you:

Sin is any variance from God and His commands.

Sin is not inherited. I was reading in Ezekiel earlier this summer and this was one of the topics that stuck out to me. Not sure of the exact verse... If it were inherited as you say it is, then with Jesus being both fully man and fully God, because he was fully man he would have inherited the attribute you claim as inherent.

And as I posted earlier in this thread: In fact, a baby is more pure than any adult. Until one is of the maturity to account for their actions, they have not sinned.

A baby can not be held accountable for his actions because he does not know the difference between right and wrong. The knowledge of this difference comes with age just like any other knowledge. And God will be the judge of when the person can actually be held accountable.

To expand further, the only way to cleanse ourselves of sin is to repent. An infant is not able to repent for his actions. So, because you believe that a baby is born with sin, if a baby dies before the age that he can repent, he will go to hell?
Matthew 19:14 - Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

This post was edited by ihavethesniffles on Sep 3 2010 03:14pm

This is just power of God as Jesus Christ, ofc he was born as a man, having inherited man's sin, but he was also God, he could control himself -that is what sets him apart from us, he had the temptations of sin, if he didn't, then what is the purpose of him coming down here? he could have done that in heaven. the point i'm trying to make here is that God never sinned but he had the ability to, if he didn't have the ability to, then his sacrifice would mean nothing
instead he took upon flesh, flesh that is our sin, he bore our weaknesses, that is our sin, the bible even states that God took upon our sins
it's almost hard to fathom that God would do this for us, even on the cross God could not look upon his own son because he bore our sins, Jesus never sinned even as a baby because he was also God, this is another reason why we as normal men could never match up to God because we cannot even control ourselves as babies
man or baby you are born with a sin nature, why does a baby cry when he is newly born? he wants attention, self love is a sin, even the two greatest commandments in the bible say, love God first and then love your neighbor

if you believe that babies are not sinners then you would also believe that man does not start as sinners and so they are absolutely perfect from the start, and that the world and the environment itself is corrupting them (because men are babies)
so if you take a child and place him in the perfect environment that he will be like baby Jesus? that he could pay for his own sin? that he will be utterly sinless? that he won't even think a sinful thought? if babies are born without sin then we could possibly create a new society full of sinless people taht will be able to enter the kingdom of heaven on their own merit, that already is a dangerous line because there is only one way to heaven and that is by faith through jesus christ, if you neglect this truth then you're saying that Jesus is a liar! in his own words he said in John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth and the life, No man cometh to the father but by me"

i am not saying that babies that die before the age he can repent will go to hell because obviously God knows their own age of accountability, babies or children who do not reach that age are promised a home in heaven because God is in sovereign control over the universe, he knows everything, he knows when you've sinned, he knows when you've even thought up a sin, that means he knows these babies, he knows whether they understand completely the difference between right and wrong, how could you or I understand the awesomeness of our God?

All I have to ask in regards to your first paragraph is if you really believe that Jesus was born with sin. You really believe that? And for you to say that a baby cries for self-attention is just silly. Everyone in the world needs attention, and that is why it is a commandment, to love your neighbor. Not only that, but would you go so far as to claim that if you follow that commandment of loving your neighbor, you are encouraging them to want more attention? Thus, you would be sinning by following the commandment? And that is not the sole reason a baby cries. A baby cries because he poops, a baby cries because he is hungry. Is it a sin to be hungry? Crying is one of the only forms of communication a baby has. Furthermore, our sole purpose is to glorify God. Is it sinful for God to want our attention? Is it sinful for your professor to ask for your attention while he is teaching?

We are born sinless, but, unlike Jesus, we can not stand up to the temptations.

That is exactly what I am saying. The devil is who corrupted Adam and Eve. Before that, Adam and Eve were both sinless. The environment and sin that is within that environment is what influences and tempts us. And yes, placing children in their own society would work, but we wouldn't be able to be a part of that society because our sinful nature would influence them. Thus, they wouldn't be able to speak, read, or anything. They would be as guiltless and children because they wouldn't be able to read the word and know God's commands. Those guiltless people would go to Heaven just as a baby does.

And in your last paragraph, you can't argue against and for it. If you believe they are born with sin then they have to have the ability to repent. Otherwise, they aren't sinning. C'mon man, put two and two together. And you mentioned God's omniscience several times in your concluding paragraph. Let me tell you that based upon the references I gave you, God knows that babies are sinless.

e: Being sinless is not the only trait of God. Thus, to be sinless does not make one God. He has an infinite number of attributes that we can never have, such as omniscience, omnipotence, etc.

This post was edited by ihavethesniffles on Sep 3 2010 04:11pm