I think prayers are just an easy way to acknowledge and address the problems and blessings in your life.
You cannot expect things to be solved without your push.
I do my own version of this but I do not call it prayer.
I have started writing tl;dr threads where I just write out what I am thinking to help me not ignore my thoughts.
The tl;dr concept keeps most from reading it, although I don't care if they do.
prayer is just another way to accept everything you want to address without going insane over it.

1: When you say "main source of strenght in life", you make it sound like you need a lot of strenght because the world is such a terrible place. It's not, it's a wonderful place with lots of small, wonderfult things in it. Wondeful things that can be explained how works thanks to science.

2: There is not ONE source of strenght in people's life. All the small, positive things and joyful moments contribute to our happiness. When the snow melts and the first flowers emerge, a sunny day, a bird doing some silly stuff, our loved ones showing us love, a pat on the back from your boss. All these things are what makes ME happy and there are nothing magical about them.

What "keeps me going", is having friends i enjoy spending time with, looking forward to the next time i can drive trough Europe with a girl that i love, buying a house together, making a family, seeing our kids grow up, etc. All those things are short term and long term "goals".

I've been trough some pretty hard times in my life and not once have i've seen any sign of help from ANY god. (There's several, isn't it? Or are all the other religions lies? And why are they wrong and you right?). I fought trough the hard times myself, alone and i made it here. Now if for example my mother or father were to give some imaginary character credits for my hard work, struggles, sweat, blood and tears... I would purposefully get myself in a bad situation again and give this imaginary character a go. (just kidding, i wouldn't). (give him a go that is).

Religion is harmful for the human species as a race. In a time where science have done so much for us both in space travel and exploration and in medicine, we turn our back to it and still chose god.

George Carlin (Stand-up comedian) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

Richard Dawkins (Atheist and scientist) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyQ57X3YhH4&feature=PlayList&p=D7930B4C55C946EE&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=10

Richard Dawkins (Explains evolution) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sLpyLeNG6Y

And last, Why won't god EVER heal amputees? http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/


The was once born and will one day die. When it gets old enough, we should have learned how to get out of here, or it's the end of the human species. We will share fate with the dinosaurs. (You know, the animals we have found bones from... carbon dated some millions back, even though some christians wants us to believe the earth is 6000 years old?)
If we relax and accepts that god "created" this earth and us (and all the other empty planets in this solar system and in a lot of others, which is a lot of whasted space), we will stop seeking outwards. People will stop looking for answers, because they think the bible have all the answers. (Yet, science is making all the explanations?).

We need to accept that we might die without getting to know the answer to if there's a god or not or what made the universe. I for one, KNOW that most likely, i'll die without getting any answers, but that doesn't make me despair and turn to god. His "answers" is to me redicilous and not very likely at all. But i'm fine with this. Think about all the other animals and insects that dies without getting to know something at all. xD. We're all animals you know.

If you want to believe in god, fine. If you want science to keep on finding the answers to our questions, PRAY that not everyone become religious so there's noone left to be sceptical that wants to keep looking.

You went kinda off-subject on this post. Why are you talking about evolution when I never even mentioned it? I think the theory of evolution is completely true, and science has a great role in my life. I actually have a diplom in engineering (environmental chemistry). But now I'm going off-subject also.

Like you, I also get comfort and joy from the smallest things of life. But that doesn't change the fact that I also get them from beleiving in God. There is still very many questions that science can't explain, nor will most-likely ever be able to. Religion is a tool for exploring these questions and finding the path.

You say you've been thorugh hard times in your life, and God hasn't helped you. God has helped me. But don't think that he solved any of my problems or interfiered with the material world. No. Just by beleiving in Him, I got the hope to survive. I can honestly say that thinking "sunny days" or vacations with girl friends wouldn't have saved me back then.

"Religion is harmful for the human species as a race."

I think that religions got invented by evolution. Incase for people to survive hard times, they need to beleive in something that's above them (God, faith). And those who beleived in gods got hope, got survived and breeded. Pure evolution, the strong survive, the weak die.

But note, this is only my stupid theory No need to take it seriously.

Hi again :-)

Well, a the danger in the "- Religion is a tool for exploring these questions and finding the path.", is that if we just accepts what religion(s) tells us, lean back and relaxes, we will FOR SURE never scientifically find the answers.

200 years back, they would burn you on a campfire if you started talking about atoms and nuclei. Sciencs usually finds the answers if given enough time. Right now, we have about 4ish billion years until we need to find another place to live, or just seize to exist. If we push science forward, we got all the time in the world, if we just lean back and think that the bible is the answer, we're screw'd.

It might be nice / good / comforting to have something to believe in when times are dark, but we can't let it get in the way of actual, scientifical problems we know we're heading towards. I too smile when i think about Lord of the Rings, and as much as i want elves and dwarwes to exist and be true, they don't. Believeing in them still gives me a smile though, they just won't solve any of our problems.

Praying to them, will give you the EXACT same successrate as praying to god though. The same percentage of cancerpatients that gets magically "healed" by god (while also recieveing chemo from doctors (developed by science)) will remain, and absolutely NO amputees will get healed. :-P

This post was edited by Shamron on May 30 2010 04:33am

The stupidest thing there is, is to accept what religion tells us without questioning. Those people who are christian just because they are, are fucking idiots. I'm not one of them.

Can science answer our questions? Yes? Maybe? I don't care, since even if it could, I wouldn't get the answers in my lifetime.

So meanwhile they're trying to explain what everthing is by science, I do it with religion, since at this moment, I have no other way.

It would be great if everything could be explained mathematically, but because it's not happening for a while, I might just explain things my own way.

And today, religions are hardly in the way of science.

Church (btw, which has nothing to do with christianity. Church is just a greedy institution) did deny most of the sciences in the Middel-Ages, but you have to also think what church brought us?

Church has given us tons of art, foster homes, donations, food, help, support. In many countries, church is still the main social security of the society.

Nevertheless, church shouldn't be connected to christianity.

I could pray to elves and ask for redemption just as I do it with God. But unlike God, elves doesn't really have anything to offer me. They don't offer me a way-of-life, they don't offer me regulations, they don't offer me laws and rules. Elves don't try to explain how the world was created nor what is the meaning of life.

That's why I pray to God instead of Elves.

There are lot of questions that science cant answer yet, and as you said: a lot of questions won't be answered in our lifetime.

You say: "-Can science answer our questions? Yes? Maybe? I don't care, since even if it could, I wouldn't get the answers in my lifetime.

So meanwhile they're trying to explain what everthing is by science, I do it with religion, since at this moment, I have no other way."

Well, have you ever thought of just accepting the fact that YOU won't live long enough to get the answer? Or is that too big of an apple to swallow? I'd rather die without getting a scientific proven answer that will, no matter how many times it's tested scientifically, will be the same time after time, than settling with belief.

When it comes to regulations and way of life...

Raping, killing, stealing, adultery and all of the things that are contained in the 10 commandments, were bad long before christianity took patent on them and claimed them their own. If i don't kill anyone, doesn't make me a christian. You would get punished for those things LONG before christianity was invented by leaders for a way to control the people.

"Elves don't try to explain how the world was created nor what is the meaning of life."

Elves, or J.R.R Tolkien does SO explain how the world was created and in a way nicer and loveable way than the bible does. WAY less contradictions. Also LOTR has about the same number of pages as the bible. Also, Tolkien haver never said that "Uhm.. the first part that isn't socially acceptable any longer (because the average intelligence is higher and because science have proven certain things impossible). (Like the old testament).

Society offer you laws and rules.

It's odd that we punish rapists, murderers and thieves here on earth, since they will get their punishment from god in the end anyways? Isn't that like double-punishment and REALLY unfair? ;-)

This post was edited by Shamron on May 30 2010 05:22am

Shamron: I suggest you actually study science and history before you continue making a fool of yourself which patently false claims. Science is absolutely not infallible. At least religions get one thing right; they stay consistent. Science is constantly changing, and our ideas of what is "correct" are changing with them, in every area of study. Here's a simple question that science cannot seem to answer conclusively: How many planets are in our solar system? Ahem. Do you have any idea how many millions of people have died due to medical mishaps throughout just the last few decades, let alone the last hundred years?

The only hypocrite (by your own words) here is you, as you believe in a theory devised hundreds of years ago (evolution) at a time when a cell was the smallest known particular of life. A good analogy is someone from space saying "the smallest thing on Earth is a skyscraper, so therefore mountains were derived from them (or some other silly conclusion)."

Or here's another easy one, since evolution is infallible: Explain how this would evolve:

What steps, step by step through it's evolutionary process would be required until it exactly matched a replica of another species (a snake) as a means of defense? What triggers would have to come in place for it to go from bland to step by step gradually looking like another species (that should also be changing/evolving as well. Seems like hitting a moving target..) Come on, should be an easy one! There are many moth/butterfly species that have these types of characteristics of mimicking reptiles. This particular species is one of the simpler forms, where others are much more elaborate, to the point that any angle you look at them, it looks like some other form of reptile.

There are hundreds of thousands of things like this in nature, and those are just the things we've discovered thus far. Thousands of new species are discovered yearly, throughout the world.

I'll take a page from Epion, to show that Science and knowledge clearly isn't expanding as rapidly as some people seem to think: (Again, just one clear and obvious example to portray this)


You claim you don't believe in God, but I say that you've made science your God. What a sorry choice, given the track record.

But I digress, this is not the forum for such subjects. Use the PaRD subforum. Don't spam this one.

so true paul i like this.

" Science is absolutely not infallible. At least religions get one thing right; they stay consistent". Oh do they - it was only in the Nicene Convention that the early Christian Churches truly established the belief that Jesus was a divinity - before this point I believe this was open to debate amongst the faith. Even in the modern community Christianity is constantly evolving - the Pope abolishing Limbo being just one example!

And come on, how is that an example to show the fallibility of the theory of evolution? Don't you think there are much more difficult things to explain with regards to Christianity? I'll share with you some that spring to my mind:

1) What was the point of God testing Abraham - if God is omniscient he would've known the outcome of the test and thus it would have no meaning.

2) What was the real purpose of Jesus dying? To redeem the world from our sins? If that’s the case this is highly selfish of God is it not? When humanity has existed for hundreds of thousands of years - but only humans from 2000 years ago are saved?

3) This is Jesus's answer in the famous story about how the rich man could enter heaven "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Surely that’s contradictory, if you have to give to the poor to enter heaven? What would happen to the poor? They would inherit these possessions, and thus wouldn’t they be forbidden to enter this seemingly elusive Kingdom of heaven?

To answer some of your other points

"Ahem. Do you have any idea how many millions of people have died due to medical mishaps throughout just the last few decades, let alone the last hundred years?" No, but I'm willing to bet it's a lot less than the amount that have died in the name of a religious war.

"The only hypocrite (by your own words) here is you, as you believe in a theory devised hundreds of years ago (evolution) at a time when a cell was the smallest known particular of life."- And you believe in a theory devised THOUSANDS of years ago - when cells weren’t even known to exist - what makes you any better?

So while you may criticise Science, I think you need to understand that although science is not perfect, it does not pretend to be. Science is merely the best way of explaining the observations we make. In this regard can be argued to be the earliest form of science - using God as an answer to explain the physical phenomena of life 2000 years ago.

This post was edited by BobLikesCheese on May 30 2010 10:53am

Yes, there are many branches of religion, with varying differences. Some take the context more literally than others. I do apologize for the broad generalization, however, you cannot compare the actions of a few to the actions of the whole. As far as the disagreements about Jesus, that is a big reason why there is the Jewish and Christian religions, and the split of the two. Either way, it's a moot issue, and not based upon "new understandings" as science is, so it's not an apples to apples comparison.

1) Do you have children? Apparently not. We test our children all the time with simple things. Almost always we know exactly what the child will do, whether it be the right or wrong decision, however, we let them do it, because they have their own free will choice to do so. We allow them that freedom. So, just because we know what the end result will be does not make the test any less valid. For instance, most would agree that things that happen to us in life "build our character". You base this fallacy of an argument on a presumptuous notion that God wouldn't do things he already knows what the result will be. Again, I'll push it back to the example prior about it leading up to further lessons along the road of life (either for the person involved, those around them, or for generations in the future.)

2) God created man with free will. In the beginning, God gave man only a single commandment, which man failed to follow (eating the forbidden fruit). From that point forward, man was in a fallen state, where life was no longer gauranteed to be easy or carefree, good, etc. Again, you label this as selfish, yet I'd say it was selfish of man to turn away from God, given all the things he did. In the face of direct interaction and miracles (read the old testament, specifically Moses leaving Egypt), man still repeatedly fell back into old habits, and forgetting what God had done. Even with direct proof, man has the selfish nature to stray from God, not the other way around. Before the time of Jesus, the commandments required various sacrifices etc towards God, and though I cannot say for certainty, I would liken this again to the child growing up analogy. Man was in an infancy during that period of time, so certain requirements made sense. As time passed, and man progressed of it's own free will, certain changes made sense. When you have a toddler, you have certain rules that won't apply as they grow older. When you have a pre-teen, again, you'll have rules for that child that will no longer apply once they become a teenager. It's not that there is any inconsistency, it's that as man became more civilized (for matter of simplification), new policies made more sense. Imagine billions of people sacrificing sheep today. At some point, you don't have to be God to realize this is not a sustainable method of worship. The child to parent analogy really works well here; parents set rules and boundaries, and children are almost always pushing against them, for their own selfish desires. I don't have sheep, you probably don't have sheep, so sacrificing them makes little sense. However, sacrificing something we DO have does continue to make sense. During the old testament (pre-Jesus), those sacrifices were based upon the belongings of people at that time.

3) You must take the entire story into context, which you did not. It's not a rigid guideline, but a rough generalization about the principals behind it. It's a way of saying "if you're selfish, and ignore the needy, you are not a just man". It's basically another way of saying do not be oppressive or suppress the needy. (The needy in this story being defined in this case as the poor and oppressed). It's an elaboration and another way of explaining the commandment to love thy neighbor.

About deaths from religious wars: Go research how many billions (yes, BILLIONS) of abortions there have been. It far surpasses even the most gruesome of wars. Additionally, almost everything you take foregranted today is based upon religion. America, the first colleges (Harvard), our governments, etc, etc. Yeah, religions are awful! Hitler (one of the more well known leaders responsible for millions of deaths and a large scale war) was very anti-religious (specifically, anti-Catholic/Christian). He believed in a form of social Darwinism, ie, cleansing of the human race. Once again, you presume that all wars are without purpose, or that all were due to religion, which is patently untrue, and a gross generalization. Civil wars are fought on basis of principals. Without the American Civil War, the USA would be a very different place today. Death is tragic, but to say all war is unnecessary is a Utopian pipe dream.

What makes it better is that you cannot refute imperically anything written therein. You can only place conjecture or try and twist words to suit your own needs. It also does not change in the way that science does; it is the word of God.

So while you may criticise Christianity, I think you need to understand that you do not know even the basic fundamentals of it, nor does it appear that you pretend to. Science originally was defined as a pursuit to understanding God's work and creation. For a lot of scientists today, that still holds true. As I stated to the other fellow, I suggest you actually do some research and studies, instead of trying to present things in an absolute "as is" manner.

I will repeat this only one last time- do not spam this forum with your questions. Use the PaRD for your anti-religious discussions.