Quote (Sioux @ 10 Mar 2010 07:07)

Look up the schedule of the next train/bus/subway whatever going by your house. You know where its going to be and where its going. Is the driver not acting of their free will?

Quote (chemoshots @ Mar 10 2010 12:53am)

This does not make sense. If he knows your action, then your action is determined. You cannot vary or you must concede that he is not omniscient as Aurorae suggested. But whatever. I'm paranoid in this sub-forum. Any modicum of doubt or disagreement and they warn ur ass. /slinkbacktogreenerpasture

Quote (killer_hate @ Mar 10 2010 12:32pm)

Well for one, most Christians don't use that type of language. And for two this isn't a discussion area, that's P.A.R.D. (Political and Religious debate section)
So maybe the warns are far more justified than you believe.

Quote

This forum provides a space for Christians to meet and discuss a variety of legitimately relevant topics

Quote (MidnightRider @ Mar 10 2010 05:41pm)

1. Your massive generalization regarding the language of Christians is a joke
2. This sure as hell is a discussion area.

Quote (WhirlingDervish @ Mar 10 2010 04:02am)

We were created with the free will, to either chose our predestination or reject it.

In the beginning of Genesis, you can read of the original design and how Adam and Eve, walked with God in the garden.

You have to also notice, God placed one choice, in the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that would end this relationship and end the predestination by free will.

Note: in relationship = one way out

The idea is saturated throughout the Bible if you look for it.

Deuteronomy 30:19 (King James Version) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

There always seems to be two choices and God always tosses us the right one.

Note: out of relationship = one way in

Matthew 7:13-14 (King James Version)

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 14:6-7 (King James Version)

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Even if someone totally grasps the reasoning back to God, it takes an act of free will to do so.

Matthew 22:14 (King James Version) For many are called, but few are chosen.

Even if you embrace what Jesus had to say, you still have a choice between embracing, His teachings as something good to live by or an actually relationship with Him.

John 1:12 (King James Version) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Last passage to meditate on...

Matthew 7:22-23 (King James Version)

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Quote (xnatex21 @ Mar 10 2010 08:35pm)

:hug:  Thank you!!

Quote (Aurorae @ Mar 10 2010 12:03am)

I believe there is only a problem if you believe God is omniscient - as it would negate free will.

For example:

There are two objects on a table. An apple and an orange.

God is omniscient, and therefore knows with 100% absolute certainty you will eat the orange. Is it possible to eat the apple?

If yes - Then God is not omniscient, and you have freewill.
If no - Then one does not have free will, since you cannot eat the apple.

Quote (Aurorae @ Mar 10 2010 01:47am)

This is a faulty analogy because humans are not omniscient. When omniscience enters the picture, you have the issue I showed here:

Quote (DoomOnYou @ Mar 16 2010 06:23am)

how does God knowing what you will choose change the fact that you chose it and not Him?  It is still your choice.  He didn't give you one or the other and make you eat it.



you are assuming that God's view of time is the same as ours, which is faulty logic.  You're taking God and putting Him into a human mold.  He is not a human.  He is outside of time, and so him seeing what our choice is before we make it does not change the fact that it was still our choice to make.  If God wanted to dictate what we do, there would never have been sin in the world.  Adam and Eve would never have disobeyed Him, and everything would be perfect.  However, that is not what He wanted.  He wanted to create beings who had the choice of whether or not to have a relationship with Him, not robots that He forced to have a relationship with Him.

The difference is this:
If God did not give us free will, but dictated what we do, it would be like a child playing with a G.I. Joe.  The child makes the toy move where he wants it to, when he wants it to, etc.  However, the relationship that the child has with that toy is rather one sided.  Assuming the child loves the toy, it is not really possible for the toy to love the child back, since it can not act on it's own.

On the other hand, the actual relationship that God created is more like a person and their pet dog.  The dog has a mind of it's own, it can choose whether or not to love the owner, etc and the relationship that a person has with their pet dog is much greater than the one they have with their G.I. Joe.

And to get back on the initial example.  It is still your choice whether to eat the apple or the orange.  God does not make the choice for you, even if He already knows what choice you will make.

Quote (KillerBunnies @ Mar 16 2010 08:32pm)

So, why does God want our love? And he created sin so that people could choose to go to hell? Seems like hes not a benevolent god.

Quote (WhirlingDervish @ Mar 10 2010 01:02am)

We were created with the free will, to either chose our predestination or reject it.

In the beginning of Genesis, you can read of the original design and how Adam and Eve, walked with God in the garden.

You have to also notice, God placed one choice, in the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that would end this relationship and end the predestination by free will.

Note: in relationship = one way out

The idea is saturated throughout the Bible if you look for it.

Deuteronomy 30:19 (King James Version) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

There always seems to be two choices and God always tosses us the right one.

Note: out of relationship = one way in

Matthew 7:13-14 (King James Version)

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 14:6-7 (King James Version)

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Even if someone totally grasps the reasoning back to God, it takes an act of free will to do so.

Matthew 22:14 (King James Version) For many are called, but few are chosen.

Even if you embrace what Jesus had to say, you still have a choice between embracing, His teachings as something good to live by or an actually relationship with Him.

John 1:12 (King James Version) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Last passage to meditate on...

Matthew 7:22-23 (King James Version)

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.