Quote (bryce722 @ Mar 3 2011 05:08pm)
okay i finally read it.
Your entire argument is built around acts 2:38 which you have misinterpreted First of all I do not have an arguement. Second, this topic is about the conversion of Cornelius, found in Acts 10 and recounted in Acts 11 and Acts 15.
You are saying that THE gift of the holy spirit means that A gift?
Those are completely different. If the bible said "and you will receive a gift of the holy spirit" then we would have an argument, but the fact that the bible says "you will receive THE gift of the holy spirit"Ok, you tell me what the gift is then. Don't tell me it is the Holy Spirit. It is not, the Holy Spirit here is giving a gift, what is that gift?
Anyone who knows the english language can know that the holy spirit is clearly the gift here.
We know that their are many gifts that the holy spirit can give to us,OK tell me what those gifts are. In order to be a gift from God it should be like the gifts given to the apostles. Those were the kinds of gifts the Holy Spirit gave. Do you beleive people speak in tongue now, do you believe in miraculous healing today? Further, Mark gives us insight into the purpose of the miraculous when he writes, "And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the Word through the accompanying signs" (Mark 16:20). Reference is made to the salvation which began to be spoken by the Lord, "and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His Will" (Hebrews 2:3, 4).
[B]The purpose of the miraculous then was to reveal and to confirm the Word of God. There was a time limitation on the miraculous. Gifts such as tongues, prophecy and knowledge (miraculous) would cease (I Corinthians 13:8-10) with the completion of the revelation. God's power has not ceased. His presence and glory are evident all around us. We are abundantly blessed by Him (Acts 14:17; James 1:17). He hears and answers prayer (James 5:16). When the revelation of truth was completed, and had been fully confirmed, the miraculous ceased, having accomplished its purpose and due to that verse we know that the holy spirit is a gift from god.
You are trying to change the word in the bible from THE to A. They are different. You cannot make that change. Read the bible for answers and quit searching for justification of your ideas in it.
You literally had to change words because you think you know what the bible was trying to say? Unbelievable.
and i already proved you wrong about the baptism of the holy spirit thing. First you said "Baptism with the Holy Spirit ended with the apostles".The apostles and Cornelius were the only two accounts in the history of the bible where baptism by the Holy Spirit was adminstered. Gifts such as tongues, prophecy and knowledge (miraculous) would cease (I Corinthians 13:8-10) with the completion of the revelation. <----Please read for a better understanding.
I proved you wrong with that so now you are saying that it ended with cornelius. Honestly you have proven nothing.
The holy spirit literally lives in us, and still does today!
1 cor 6:19
1 Corinthians 6:17-21 (New King James Version)
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[a] and in your spirit, which are God’s. I don't see a problem with this, it has nothing to do with being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; "
1 cor 3:16
Corinthians 3:14-17 (New King James Version)
14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. I don't see a problem with this, it has nothing to do with being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?
romans 8:9
Romans 8:7-11 (New King James Version)
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. I don't see a problem with this, it has nothing to do with being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
romans 8:11
See above.
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[a] his Spirit who lives in you
2 cor 1:22
2 Corinthians 1:20-24 (New King James Version)
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
23 Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth. 24 Not that we have dominion over your faith, but are fellow workers for your joy; for by faith you stand. I don't see a problem with this, it has nothing to do with being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit
2 cor 5:5
God, who has given us the Spirit
2 Corinthians 5:3-7 (New King James Version)
3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. I don't see a problem with this, it has nothing to do with being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Read those verses. God has given us the spirit to dwell in us as a gift. The spirit is God, he is eternal and holy, and he prays on our behalf.
praise the lord that he lives in us!
To bad you spent all that time looking those verses up when they don't prove anything about salvation coming by the way of being baptized by the Holy Spirit. Which is what you believe.
If I may continue, I hope to put this to rest. Bryce, I know you will not believe but hopefully others who do read will understand. Frequently there is some confusion as to when baptism is mentioned as to which baptism is occurring -- baptism in water or baptism in the Spirit.
Baptism in the Spirit is a baptism that was administered by Christ. John promised that Jesus would baptize with the Spirit.
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" (Matthew 3:11). And
when we read of the two events that are called the baptism of the Holy Spirit, we see that no man was involved in its administration. In Acts 2:2 we are told that it came from heaven and in both events we are told that God gave the recipients the gift (Acts 2:17, 32-33; 11:17; 15:8).
In contrast, baptism in water is administered by men. Jesus commanded, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19). And when the eunuch was baptized, we see that it was done by Philip. "Both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him" (Acts 8:38).
The baptism in the Spirit was promised by Christ. "Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high" (Luke 24:49). And again, "John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now ... But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth" (Acts 1:5, 8). However,
baptism in water is not promised, but commanded. Peter commanded it of Cornelius and his household, "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord" (Acts 10:48). Ananias instructed Saul to be baptized, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16). Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize people of all nations in Matthew 28:19. A command can be obeyed, but a promise cannot be obeyed; a promise must be given.When we read about people being baptized in the Spirit, we see that signs accompanied the event (Acts 2:4-8; 10:44-46). In particular, those baptized began to speak in other languages (or tongues). But baptism in water did not gant miraculous gifts. Again, the baptisms of the Samaritans prove this point. "But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. ... Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 8:12, 14-16).
Finally, all Christians were not baptized in the Spirit. As we previously noted, there were many baptism between Acts 2 and Acts 10, yet the baptism in the Spirit in Acts 2 and in Acts 10 were unique in the history of the church. Even receiving miraculous gifts of the Spirit was not universal. "And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?" (I Corinthians 12:28-30). The answer to Paul's questions is "No." All Christians did not receive the gifts. However, all Christians were baptized in water.
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19)."Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?" (Romans 6:3)."For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ" (Galatians 3:27).This then leads us to the question,
"Wasn't the baptism received by Cornelius the gift of the Spirit promised by Peter in Acts 2:38-39?" Peter promised of the gift of the Spirit would come after repenting and being baptized for the forgiveness of sins. However, Cornelius received the Spirit before he was baptized. Therefore, it cannot be the same promised gift.We must also take note that the gift in Acts 2:38-39 was universally promised. "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself" (Acts 2:39). Yet we saw earlier that everyone did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and everyone did not receive the miraculous gifts of the Spirit. However, there is a gift of the Spirit that has been promised to all who have their sins remitted. "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory" (Ephesians 1:13-14). The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge of our inheritance.
In other words, there is a gift of the Spirit which serves as our guarantee of a heavenly reward after this life ends. It is not a gift that is accompanied by miraculous signs, but it is an important gift which every child of God would possess.If you think that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was a common event, then we need to address the question as to what purpose the those unique baptism served. For the baptism that occurred on Pentecost, we are told as to its purpose.
The Spirit was given to teach the apostles and to remind them of the events that they witnessed. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you" (John 14:26).
In addition the Spirit would give the apostles power to be effective witnesses of the Christ. "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth" (Acts 1:8). It was through the signs that accompanied the apostles that God bore witness to the truth. "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?" (Hebrews 2:3-4).
Therefore, the primary purpose of the baptism of the Holy Spirit was to give witness to the truth.Before considering the purpose of Cornelius' baptism in the Spirit, let us address what this baptism did not do. The Spirit did not come to make Cornelius acceptable to God. Cornelius was already a God-fearing man (Acts 10:2). He already had a good reputation before men and God (Acts 10:22). But as Peter stated, Cornelius was already acceptable to God, "in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him" (Acts 10:35).
The Spirit did not come to give Cornelius faith. Cornelius already believed in God (Acts 10:2) and Cornelius came to believe in God's Son through the gospel preached to him. "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). Peter testified that by hearing the word of the gospel, Cornelius believed. "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe" (Acts 15:7). Cornelius's faith was by the message preached to him and not by direct intervention of the Spirit of God.
The Spirit did not come to give Cornelius salvation. In neither Acts 2 or Acts 10 is there any mention that by receiving the baptism of the Spirit the recipients gained salvation. It is simply an assumption made by various people that the Spirit would not come upon a person unless he is saved. However, there are instances when the Spirit came upon people who we know were in sin. For example, the Spirit came upon Saul while he was searching to murder David. "So David fled and escaped, and went to Samuel at Ramah, and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and stayed in Naioth. Now it was told Saul, saying, "Take note, David is at Naioth in Ramah!" Then Saul sent messengers to take David. And when they saw the group of prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as leader over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied. And when Saul was told, he sent other messengers, and they prophesied likewise. Then Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they prophesied also. Then he also went to Ramah, and came to the great well that is at Sechu. So he asked, and said, "Where are Samuel and David?" And someone said, "Indeed they are at Naioth in Ramah." So he went there to Naioth in Ramah. Then the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on and prophesied until he came to Naioth in Ramah. And he also stripped off his clothes and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Therefore they say, "Is Saul also among the prophets?" (1 Samuel 19:18-24). Balaam also was able to prophesy for God even while he sought for a way to hinder God and make money from the deal (Numbers 23:1-5; II Peter 2:15). At least with the case of Cornelius we are dealing with better material; at least Cornelius was a godly man. But because the Spirit comes upon a person, it does not imply that the person was saved or lost.
In the New Testament, we have several cases where the Spirit is given to those who were already saved. The apostles were chosen by Jesus and were baptizing prior to Jesus' death (John 4:1-2), but they did not receive the baptism of the Spirit until a later time in Acts 2. The Samaritans believed and were baptized prior to receiving the gifts of the Spirit as recorded in Acts 8. Those in Corinth were baptized prior to receiving the gifts as well (Acts 18:8; I Corinthians 12:1-11). The same is true of those in Ephesus. "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied" (Acts 19:5-6). But even in each of these cases, only one is called a baptism by the Spirit. The rest received gifts of the Spirit by the laying on of the apostles' hands.
Not everyone received miraculous gifts from the Spirit, but all Christians did receive salvation from their sins. We must always keep in mind that Peter reported that Cornelius would hear words where by he would be saved (Acts 11:14). Later Peter also stated that we are all saved by the grace of Jesus, just as Cornelius was saved. "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they" (Acts 15:8-11).
The Spirit did not come to sanctify Cornelius. Sanctification is done through the word of God. As Jesus prayed, "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth" (John 17:17).
The Spirit did not come to bring Cornelius forth. This, again, is done by the word of God. "Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures" (James 1:18).
The Spirit did not come to give Cornelius a new birth. This, too, is done by the word of God. "Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:22-23).
The Spirit did not come to cleanse Cornelius's heart. His heart was cleansed by faith (Acts 15:9).
The Spirit did not come as an alternative or as a replacement for baptism in water. Even though he received the baptism in the Spirit, Peter still commanded that Cornelius and his household should be baptized in water. "'Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?' And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord" (Acts 10:47-48).
The Spirit did not come to make Cornelius a child of God. That is done by faith and baptism in water.
"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Galatians 3:26-27).So why did the Spirit come upon Cornelius and his household? The answer is clearly stated by Peter in Acts 15:8-11. "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they." God acknowledged them, or bore them witness, or testified to them (depending on your translation) by giving them the Holy Spirit.Therefore, our next question is, "A witness to what?" Some time after Cornelius's conversion the issue was raised as to whether a Gentile had to become a Jew before he could be saved. "Some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses" (Acts 15:5). Peter's response to this was to point out that the Spirit came to witness that these Gentiles could be saved without being first a Jew.
Peter did not say that the Spirit came to witness that a person could be saved without baptism.This then leads to the question, "Why did the Spirit come before Cornelius was baptized in water?" In order to answer this question, you need to notice that six Jewish Christians had accompanied Peter to Cornelius's house (Acts 10:23; 11:12). As stated in the text, the Spirit's coming was a shock to these men. "And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God" (Acts 10:45-46). Peter then turned to these same men and asked if they dare object to Cornelius being baptized in water given the obvious testimony of God (Acts 10:47; 11:17).
Also, notice that the Spirit did not come upon the Gentiles until Peter began to speak (Acts 11:15). Here was testimony to all that Gentiles could be saved through the word of God (Acts 11:13-14).
When Peter testified at the gathering in Jerusalem, recorded in Acts 15, he used the example of Cornelius to prove that Gentiles, while remaining Gentiles and not becoming Jews, were accepted by God. Peter did not use the case of Cornelius to prove that everyone should receive the Spirit, or that the Spirit burnt sin out of a sinner's heart, or that the Spirit's coming made him a child of God. Instead, we find that Peter used the baptism of the Spirit as proof that Cornelius and his household should be baptized in water, as recorded in Acts 10 and Acts 11. Peter consistently argued that the Gentiles were to receive the gospel without being bound to the Law. For anyone to claim otherwise would be trying God. "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" (Acts 15:10).