Can anyone tell me where this is found in the Bible?


This is a question of considerable controversy in the religious world, though it should not be.

When a man sins for the first time, he becomes separated from God, "for the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). The only remedy for sin is the blood of Jesus Christ (Revelation 1:5).

When one obeys the gospel, he is saved (Mark 16:15-16). Therefore, we understand that obeying the gospel is the means by which one is saved or freed from sin (Romans 6:17-18). We maintain contact with Jesus' blood by living faithfully to God, which is called "walking in the light" in 1 John 1:7.

Now, let's look more closely at 1 John 1:7 -- "if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

First note the epistle is written to Christians. This is seen from John's use of the pronoun "we" throughout the epistle. Thus, John is including himself in his writing.

Second, note the conditionality of the statement - walking in the light (faithful living) is the condition upon which continual cleansing takes place.

Therefore, it is proper and logical to say that a failure to walk in the light would cause a Christian not to enjoy the provision of forgiveness. What then would be that Christian's spiritual condition? If contact with Jesus' blood is necessary for forgiveness, and that contact is not maintained, then the only logical conclusion is that the Christian is lost.

Note also Galatians 5:4 -- "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." This epistle is also written to Christians (1:1-2). If we are saved by grace (and we are Acts 15:11; Ephesians 2:5, 8), then what is the result of falling from grace? It must mean a state of being lost. There is no alternative.
Revelation 3:5 provides a conditional statement to the Christians at Sardis, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life " So what may be here inferred? The blotting out of a Christian's name from the book of life is possible. Incidentally, the means by which one "overcomes" is with the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 12:11).

Now - look at the situation of Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8:5-25. He believed the preaching of Philip and was baptized. Yet, he later committed a grievous sin by trying to buy the power to pass on the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Peter told him his heart was not right with God, and that he needed to repent and pray for forgiveness.

This is the second law of pardon for the Christian. When we become unfaithful, if we are willing to repent and confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

Finally, James 5:19-20 says, "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." James says a brother (Christian) who errs from the truth (becomes lost) needs converting (changing) to save his soul from death (hell) and hide a multitude of sins (remember 1 John 1:9).

Most of the religious world does not believe a Christian can so sin as to be lost, but they do not get this doctrine from the Bible. The scriptures cited above are crystal clear in their teaching. A Christian can sin so as to be lost, but through repentance, confession, and prayer can be restored to a right relationship with God.

Again I ask, can anyone tell me where this "once saved always saved" is found in the Bible? Otherwords, if I quit being a faithful Christain and become an adulterer or drunkard or homosexual or fornicator I will still enter Heaven because....."once saved always saved".

Keep in mind that Paul lists "adulterers" right along with drunkards, homosexuals, swindlers and fornicators as being those who "shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

Just food for though, good night.

This post was edited by Kisssofdeath on Feb 8 2011 12:17am

(Thanks for making a topic dedicated to this one.)

Well, thanks for that info, I have taken it into account, and have also had this same discussion on various forums recently a few times.

So I'll let you know a few things that I have noticed too, so you can see the reasons:

- Jesus said that those who departed from Him, were never truly "Born From Above" in the first place.

- He also said that no one could ever snatch his followers out of His hand. (And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand John 10:28)

- God will finish the work he has started in a person, unto the day of redemption.

- There has to be a difinitive moment of complete Permanent and Radical change when someone comes to salvation, a complete u-turn of the life, so that your friends and family, and loved ones wonder what happened to you. People can't just say they're suddenly a "Christian". Its a very noticable change. "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, the old has gone and the new has come"

Thats just a few things off the top of my head, but the whole of salvation brings testimony to this. Thats what salvation is, to be saved. Not to be saved for a while, but to be saved Permanently. The storms come, but nothing shakes you.
There is also this verse:



And most of all just from personal experience. A butterfly never turns back into a caterpillar. For example, there is no way I could ever go back to the old man, the old sinful lifestyle. No matter what happens to me, nor what life could possibly throw at me, will ever move me. The foundation is on the solid rock.



Hopefully that helps you see where I'm coming from. I believe in predestination.

This post was edited by Torm1 on Feb 8 2011 12:46am

Its basically describing the traits of someone who is not saved in the first place. Thats the lifestyle of the unrepentant, all those thing are "ok" in the unbeliever's eyes... If someone is truly saved, will they be doing those kinds of things with Jesus living through them? No, because Jesus doesn't sin. And if they are living a lifestyle of that, then are they saved? Obviously not because those are not fruits of a saved person. Jesus makes us "Come out of the World"

Its that "Permanent and Radical" change that will be a characteristic of the truly born again, they will be able to describe to you the moment of salvation (When it "happened") and nothing will be the same after that moment.

Steadfast and unwavering.

This post was edited by Torm1 on Feb 8 2011 12:54am

Saved in Hellenistic Greek (N.T. Greek) is a present action verb that also continuous into the future, in as best as we can describe in English as a process. It is very hard to translate the intent verb tense intent but to best laymen "something started and is growing". When it comes to salvation and all the contexts, history, parables and applications, I have found, It is best described as "starting a relationship with God and growing in that relationship".

Here are some verses from John to consider.


John 1:12 (King James Version)

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


Note: Becoming a "son of God" comes after (lose general idea) "recognizing the need to know God and receiving him in similar manner" and that is not a given here. Concreting this separation could take years, I'm just tossing out there, it seems to exist in some form.


John 10:27-28 (King James Version)

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


Note: Here we have both, a description of a continuous action and relationship. It is also quite a statement, under the culture of Jesus' day, of his dedication, "likely to the point of great suffering and possible death", to care for and nurture them. Very similar to the idea of a "father to son" relationship. We also have a simple picture of being a son by the same thought.

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Thoughts?

I thought you might mention John 10:28. I have copied and pasted this from another topic to address John 10:28 again.

A verse often cited in defense of this doctrine is John 10:28, where Jesus said of his sheep, "I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." To understand the Bible properly, a verse must be read in its context, that is, by reading the verses before and/or after the one cited. In this case, we need to read verse 27, which says, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." We see two conditions given to receive eternal life and never perish: 1) hearing the voice of Jesus; and 2) following Jesus. Does it not stand to reason that if you don't follow Jesus you will perish? John 10:28 is not an unconditional promise!

The Bible clearly teaches the reality and possibility of apostasy. Jesus said, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt 10:22). Conversely, it makes sense to say, "he who does not endure to the end will not be saved." To "endure" is to persevere. The meaning is obvious; Jesus is commanding faithfulness in order to receive salvation. Note the command is given to the twelve apostles, including Judas Iscariot, who later betrayed Jesus and subsequently committed suicide. Oftentimes, when one ceases to live the "Christian" life, it is said "He never was saved in the first place." Will they apply this "reasoning" to Judas? If so, Jesus personally chose and sent out a man who was never saved to preach the kingdom of heaven (Matt 10:7). He also empowered this same lost man with the ability to "heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, and cast out demons" (Matt 10:8). Who is willing to believe this? The only alternative is to contend that Judas' sin didn't cause him to be lost. Therefore we ask, "Can a man betray Jesus, commit suicide, and still be saved?" Again, who is will defend this? Finally, in John 17, Jesus said: "Those whom you gave Me I have kept, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled" (v 12). The twelve were given to Jesus and all were kept but one, and he is described as being lost. How can something be "lost" if it was never possessed to begin with?

Paul wrote, ‘Christ is become of no effect unto you who attempt to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace.' (Gal 5:4). This was written to the church (1:1-2). How can one misunderstand this? If one is saved by grace (Eph 2:5, 8), and one falls from that grace, does it not follow that one is no longer saved? If not, why not?

Many other texts teach the possibility of apostasy (2 Pet 2:20-22; Heb 3:12; 10:38-39, etc). When one reads these, he can come to no other conclusion. Let's strive to always accept what the Bible says in spite of what we may believe or have been taught by others.

I'm not sure what else I can say but I will try to come up with other convincing material.

Anyone can say they're Christian, and many do.

But those who are saved, can't go back. Its actually impossible.

There is a difference between saying you're saved and experiencing it.

The doctrine that once a person is saved, he can never be lost, is usually referred to as the doctrine of eternal security, or the impossibility of apostasy. This doctrine comforts many, but it is contrary to the scriptures. Several Bible characters fell away. Demas faithfully served with Paul. Paul wrote, Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you (Colossians 4:14), but then later wrote to Timothy, Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica (2 Timothy 4:10). Not only did Demas forsake Paul, but we understand that he forsook the Lord as well, having loved this present world too much. Philip converted Simon the Sorcerer at Samaria, and even baptized him (Acts 8:13), but then Simon sought to buy the ability to give the spiritual gifts. Peter warned him, Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity (Acts 8:22-23). Simon risked his soul for earthly riches and prestige. Surely he would have been lost if he did not follow Peter's command to repent. What about Judas Iscariot? When he betrayed Christ, not one of the other disciples suspected him. They certainly would have suspected him if he had not exercised the same spiritual gifts, healing powers, and casting out of demons as they had. Here we have 3 examples of people who were saved but "went back". I know it is true because it is Gods word. How can this be denied?

God cares for His children, and He also gives those children free will. Each person has the right to choose to obey the gospel of Christ, or to refuse to obey the gospel of Christ, or to renounce Christ entirely. This ability to choose gives man responsibility. A man without free will would not be responsible for his sins. Now think about this. If a person can live any way he wishes to, and commit any sin he wants to after conversion, without losing his soul, then that person has lost his free will to choose whether or not to be a Christian.

Jesus said to the church at Ephesus, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, "ask for forgiveness" and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent (Revelation 2:4-5). The church at Ephesus, meaning the individual Christians who made up that congregation, had left its first love, and had fallen. The Lord warned them of the consequences if they did not repent. How is it possible for one to be asked to repent if they are not saved to start with? They were saved, but had fallen, otherwise why would they be asked to repent? Peter lists a number of graces such as faith, virtue, and temperance, which each Christian should work to acquire, saying, if ye do these things, ye shall never fall (2 Peter 1:10). Peter's promise, ye shall never fall, however, is a conditional statement. We are promised not to fall if ye do these things, but implied in the promise is that we will fall if we do not do these things. The doctrine that a child of God can do anything he pleases and never be concerned for his soul is neither scriptural nor reasonable. Every man is accountable to God for how he lives. What dangerous ground a man walks on when he chooses to sin, rather than striving with all his ability to do the Lord's will!

I bring this in love. God is not the author of confusion, there are no contradictions in the Bible, one must take easy to understand passages in light of difficult ones in order to understand the difficult ones. I believe I have done my duty of bringing this subject to light and discredit "by the scriptures" that the doctrine of man "once save always saved" is false. The evidence has been offered, it is up to the reader to determine to believe or not to believe. I have tried to explain it to the best of my ability.

Then the question arises, was he transformed in the first place? Because if so, he wouldn't have left.

Of course they all were "transformed", Id like to use the term saved. They obeyed the Gospel, why would anyone think otherwise? Its this thing called Free Will. that God gives to man. I explained all of that. Remember, God is not the author of confusion and there are no contradictions in the Bible.

Jesus told Peter to mind his own business:

“If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

How can you think you can judge who will be saved and who will not? Scripture?

Beware.