It's not like I'm the only one who thinks I've been getting nothing but crap. I'd be more inclined to believe you if no one agreed with me

That didn't answer my question, though.

To be very honest, I've never found the JSP community to be particularly friendly or accommodating for much of anything, I'm quite sad to say. I only come on here to lurk the sub forums for games I play and occasionally post some songs I want to share with my like-minded friends in the music section. Aside from that, this place is clash of the egos big time. I mean BIG TIME. Especially some of these subforums... (PARD much??) It's a trend that spans a lot of the internet in general though I think. Obviously you can make friends anywhere but this site is full of so many people who login day to day to rub their own egos and verify to themselves that they REALLY ARE COOL!! Maybe they need to get outside... But, your JSP experience is not mine. I can only say, this thread definitely does not surprise me in the least. You would be better off finding your answers on a forum that is dedicated to this type of talk and filled with people who are excited to share their passion with you.

This thread could be a thousand pages long with not ONE SINGLE encouraging post and it would still be worth as much as it is right now, which is not much in my book because of all the negativity. Anybody who tells you that you won't or can't or shouldn't generally isn't the guy you're gonna ask for help again. They're also not the type of person to think outside of normal boundaries. Again, I'm not a programmer, but I am a designer and musician who once upon a time was a tiny bit of a programmer. Programming is an art in and of itself and I know a little but not much. But to be quite honest, it's as much a design job as it is a heady, left-brained job too. In both the design field and, it seems to me, in the programming field, solving problems is generally the outline of the job itself. Indeed much of life (arguably ALL) is about this very same thing... solving problems. Granted, you are solving different types of problems with different approaches and solutions in programming but the basic "designing solutions" piece still exists. Anyway, if you get stuck in the box of listening to what society wants of you and what it expects, you get boxed in. It's inevitable in that sense since you are part of it, but finding a way to break out of this and be truly YOU is a common problem for artists and designers alike... in my mind, this includes programmers most definitely.

I have no doubt that there are some excellent programmers here with excellent advice to give. I also have no doubt that many of them are sick of hearing the same questions over and over from people who have a passing interest in what they spend their life doing. I understand completely, I see the same thing on design and music production forums that I regularly attend and I feel the frustration. But on the same hand, I always have to remind myself to take a step back and take my ego out of it. Why do I make music/art? Because it's what I love to do and of course I want the world to feel that love too. I don't do it to reassure myself that I'm cool... surely my problems would be much deeper than they appear if that was the case. By sharing my passions and the knowledge that I have, I open myself up to receiving the same type of energy back (ebb and flow of energy/consciousness if you're into that type of thing) and also I consciously take a step towards enriching the world around me in a very direct and immediate way. This thread has taken a rough turn and gotten way sidetracked into a debate of egos and he said this's and she said that's. That's not what this is about... at all.

All I'm saying is, a general reminder to nobody in particular but a message that comes from my heart with love... take a step back and remember why you do what you do in the first place. If I got all caught up on saying "hey if you want to make music like we do then you have to go to school and buy these plugins and this hardware and get this program and this workflow" then all the music that comes out as result is not only from a soul-less formula but it's also the same shit over and over. It's also not YOU, it's somebody else because it's not from the heart. Finding your own voice is a huge part of becoming a mature person, both artistically and in your everyday life. Programming isn't so subjective from what I understand. It seems it generally works as a solution or it doesn't but I know that people have different styles and methods of programming and such... the fine arts are a bit more subjective so the comparison is not truly the best in all honesty, but my point remains the same.

Man, this post is getting long-winded... What I really wanted to say was, basically, if you want to help him given the info he has given (ie: college is not an option), post some tips, if you don't want to help him with the info he has given, either politely suggest a few alternative ways he could reach schooling or don't post at all. And if you post, remember WHY you post. Is it coming from a place of love or are you simply annoyed with hearing the same questions over and over? We had a discussion about this on one of the music forums I go to and we concluded that while it sucks to have to answer the same elementary questions over and over, we have to remember why we are here in the first place. If we're not here to congregate and share our passion, what are we here for? To shamelessly fight and bicker for a taste of self-confidence fed through the illusion of an ego? I don't think that's what it's all about at all.

Dude, just do it. Grab a book, program some code. Ask people who are willing to help and always keep moving forward. One step at a time. Sky's the limit, seriously. Einstein's grades in school were pretty awful. Structure does NOT equal better, it's simply another approach. Ultimately, all roads lead to the same place. Anyway, this is my last post here and I don't want anybody to think I'm siding with anybody either. I think both vantage points have some real validity, take it all with a grain of salt and control your own reality by making choices that work for YOU. I am always facing similar problem in different fields, music production can get pretty heady if you let it, it's just about taking it one step at a time. Master everything.

And for the record, to eagl3s1ght, who posted that the OP was just looking for some encouragement, maybe that's true, maybe it's not, but if it is, what's wrong with that? Do you not seek connection from your fellow human beings? If you answered no to that, I'd strongly encourage you to rethink that answer. Anyway, my first post wasn't meant to be all like "Who cares what you do, you'll do fine!" because obviously that's ignorant to the reality of the situation. If you got that from my post, I'd encourage you to re-read it. It was meant to say, "Hey, you can do whatever you want if you really have the drive." Sometimes we all forget that.

Once more, good luck.

I'm pretty clear with myself about where I stand on this one. (As of right now, it's because the Diablo 3 servers are down.)

You're pretty clearly deluded about why you're posting though.


If you got the sense that anybody said or meant the opposite of that (which is what, "you can't do whatever you want even if you have the drive"? or to be more generous, "you can't do it without a college education"), then you seriously need to re-read this thread.

This post was edited by irimi on May 16 2012 12:23am

To be honest I didn't really learn much in university, but without a degree you will struggle to get past HR and will be at a big disadvantage - though it's certainly doable.

Some of my favourite software development books:
The Pragmatic Programmer
Code Complete
Design Patterns
Refactoring
Growing Object Oriented Software Guided By Tests
Applied Cryptography (not really software development, but good to know and usually taught at college)
Concrete Mathematics: A Foundation for Computer Science (again not software development, but good to know. If you struggle with it get another simpler one to guide you into it)
Pick a book for each of the languages you learn (make sure to take a look at reviews)

Some languages to look at (with reason in parentheses) to learn from:
Some kind of assembly (low level programming)
C (procedural programming)
Java or C# or Smallalk (object oriented programming)
Scheme or any other LISP dialect (functional programming) - check out http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-001-structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs-spring-2005/
Forth or Factor (stack based programming)
SQL (declarative programming)
Eiffel (design by contract)

For jobs though you'll probably want to be looking at: C#, Java, C++, PHP, SQL, Python, and JavaScript

Try these tasks:
A compiler or byte code generator + interpreter for your own language
A scalable (take a look at Varnish and Redis) dynamic website e.g. a blog - load test it
Build a relational database for some kind of made up company (like a health company) - normalise to third normal form
Build a multi-threaded application where two threads will share a resource
Build some large application (>10,000 physical lines of code) that you think will be useful, try to keep it maintainable (split it into loosely coupled components, use unit testing and take a look at mock testing)

If you really want a thorough knowledge of computer science then try working your way through the books: the art of computer programming - though most of the maths is not all that useful for real development (though no doubt good to know)

good luck

This post was edited by NoWhere on May 17 2012 04:01pm

thank you very much actually the art of computer programming was recommended to me by a developer I know

most of your software developing books are close calls between the aforementioned post #1 list, I'll check em out

you're right on the portfolio building plan too it sounds really familiar to what my friend advised

in all honesty you sound like a fucking retard
you ask for advice concerning a given topic
then when people give you damn good advice
you call them haters because you disagree

if you want to be a programmer YOU WILL HAVE TO SPEND MONEY
quit being a jew fuck because even if you do go to college you still have to take certification courses for serious companies to consider you for certain projects
please let me know when you move on from HTML to something just a little more difficult like VB
then again when you get the JSP and PHP
you have a horrible attitude and while your work ethic may be exemplary
having a fuckshit attitude will certainly prevent you from furthering your career

here's any easier scenario...
move back in with mommy and pop her titty back in your mouth
problem solved

This post was edited by killxcount on May 20 2012 12:08am

LOL certification
you must be one of those "web gurus"
hahahahhahahaha most serous programmers look down on certification, getting them is akin to saying "I'm not good enough at this to impress you with my skills, so I'll pay for this stupid test and hope you believe that it means I'm good"

certifications help get you through the screening process, but a good portfolio/resume will do that regardless of what certifications you have.

that said, i don't think certifications apply very much in software development. maybe they matter in IT or lower-level web-design jobs, but definitely not if you're going for a SWE position at a software company.

all that said, this does sum up the thread pretty well:


This post was edited by irimi on May 20 2012 05:08pm

I've already been getting positive advice from people so your "you have a shit attitude because you don't think I'm right" nonsense can stop