This is getting old. You have your own opinion and I have mine. You "can't wrap your head around why someone would say something". I couldn't read that with a straight face. Just how old are you? Didn't you just get out of college or something? (Programming 5 years?) Did you close your mind that fast after starting work?

The small things I was talking about are important to me. Much like python seems to be important to you. Arguing over that doesn't seem like it will go anywhere. Subjective material.

Who told me C++ is good? My professors, my friends in the field, people on the internet (some from this forum IIRC) and even people I just met at college, graduate students and math majors. They all had success learning on c++. Why can't someone else?

Do you really need to hear their reasoning?

How about you explain your reasoning as to why colleges still teach c++ and java, if python is superior? How about you explain (in depth) how every programmer should learn. I would like to hear.





This post was edited by Eep on Oct 18 2012 05:49pm

Because the truth is that many colleges are utter crap. Unless we're talking about top-tier universities (i.e. MIT), you can count on their CS programs to be outdated, poorly taught, and more or less unmaintained. Shit, even MIT has been kind of outdated for many years (see above discussion re: Scheme), though their alternative to using Python was a far superior and much more justifiable choice than that of most colleges teaching with C++.

Instead of challenging people with more experience and knowledge than you based on your survey of a limited amount of people (who, by the way, are far from a representative sample... let alone a useful one), maybe you ought to do some research yourself to find out what's being used to teach CS at the best universities. You should also recognize the fact that you could very well be asking the wrong questions of these people in the first place, and are thus getting an incomplete response to the question being posed here.

i.e. "what language should I learn?" is a significantly different question from "what language should I use to learn programming?" ... which is incidentally, also a significantly different question from, "what language should i use to learn CS/software engineering?"

For example, the fact that you're taking an intro programming class that's being taught in C++ is already a HUGE indicator to me that the school you're going to isn't all that great when it comes to their CS department/program. Yeah, that's right, I went there.

Last but not least, it's not incredibly surprising that a lot of people who only know one language will recommend that language for learning. Ignorance of other languages notwithstanding, they also can't get over the fact that the language they know and use every day may not necessarily be the best tool for learning, because they have some silly notion that their ego would be bruised if such were the case. (And I realize you may take this statement personally; I didn't even think about you when I wrote this sentence, though I suspect it may very well apply to you as well.)

-----
re: how every programmer should learn --- this is actually generally accepted knowledge in the higher tiers of software engineers. Go look at some top-tier companies and read about their hiring and interview process -- i.e. what they look for. The crappy companies with hiring managers who don't understand software will probably look for the buzz-words and names of commonly known languages (i.e. C++).

The companies that are doing amazingly well are always hiring people who have solid fundamentals, regardless of whether the number of languages they know is 0 or 100, or whether they actually know the particular language required to do their job. They realize that even if the person they hire doesn't know C++ or Java, if that person is smart and has a solid grasp of all the important CS principles, then they can trust said person to be able to pick it up on the job.

This post was edited by irimi on Oct 18 2012 06:06pm

When you say a CS program is outdated, in what way do you mean that? From what I can tell, there haven't been a terribly lot of advancements in computer science (the programming itself) lately. Python and visual basic/studio seem to feel pretty modern. But the algorithms, math, logic, etc...that seems to have all remained pretty much the same.

We have had leaps and bounds of technological advances. I know that memory management isn't as important nowadays as it was back then. (I was informed of certain small small computers used on planes/etc where it is still important though, so I still want to learn about it).

But I never cared about what was used to learn on. I told the OP that there is a lot of stuff to learn that isn't language specific, I said you could use online sources to learn, I said java/c++ would make you want to improve your syntax.


So I have to wonder if all this hostility is necessary.

in the end, it is up to the person, isn't it? You could tell them anything, but at the end of the day, it is about how much work they put in. That is why I offered advice, regardless of my own experience. Because nothing I say will really affect this person.

Likewise, it is why I didn't really care much about that guy who spouted off about HOW TO SUCCEED in school. If you want to learn, then you will learn, and along the way, you will find what is right/wrong. Regardless of what someone tells you.



This post was edited by Eep on Oct 18 2012 06:08pm

LOL. You ask about hostility when you're the one who started this whole flame war? GG.

I said

Maybe offer up suggestions instead of quoting other peoples.....but that requires thinking, and thinking is hard, eh?

I was being honest - I don't know the guy, he didn't offer anything new, and he went out of his way to point out my inexperience, like he was some sort of programming paragon. Then he called ME pretentious. After that.

I wouldn't have said shit if he didn't. So did I really start this?

Yes. Yes you did. Also, the fact that this thread is only a few topics down makes it even that much more hilarious:
http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=64858831&f=120

It's great to see that you've pretty much gained zero self-awareness over the course of the last few months though. Unsurprising, but great nonetheless.

But I'm sure you'll just keep turning this around and blame everybody else about it. I mean, even though it keeps happening to you, it's always their fault, right?

BTW -- the quote of kenshin from the other thread re:Java/Python is an example of how two people can disagree on a topic without either person getting their panties up in a bunch about it. I don't think I ever followed up on it, but I ended up agreeing with what he said even though we started out from fairly opposing viewpoints.

This post was edited by irimi on Oct 18 2012 06:15pm

That is a biased opinion of you agreeing with him.

Sorry but you don't put someone down then expect them to just say nothing, especially on an internet forum. That is wishful thinking.

Lets answer these is order:

1. I graduated in 2008 with a Bsc. in Computer Science. During my time in school I was programming constantly and did co-op work.
2. I never closed my mind. I'm always open to new technology and new languages. I've even started dabbling in functional programming.
3. Your subjective opinion isn't most people's subjective experience learning to program. I've helped quite a few people get started and every one who tried learning with Java and C++ had a hard time due to quirks of the languages. I'm always trying something new, which is what keeps my skills marketable.
4. I never C++ was bad. It's a great language for many things. I said it's a bad teaching language. Your professors come from a time when the only language to learn was C++. There is a huge diversity of languages now and many professors don't bother keeping up because to an academic programming is a tool to be used, not a thing to study in depth. Some of the worst programmers I've met were professors. In an academic setting you generally don't give a shit about the quality of the code or what language it's in as long as the code backs up the point you are making in a published paper and works for the most part. Computer Science is as much about programming as carpentry is about hammers.
5. There is hostility because you are asserting the truth of your statements even though you lack any practical experience in the subject. You aren't actually giving us reasons why your choice is best, you are deferring to someone else's opinion. This shows that you don't actually have any reasoning behind your assertions and it's annoying.

HAHAHAHA. CALLED IT.

You don't agree with me therefore you are biased. Take that!