Let me quote myself from another thread about learning to program:



Double this for C++. Having a beginner try to learn a language with pointers and without garbage collection and without a good standard library is going to cause them a huge amount of grief. People like to pretend that learning esoteric shit like that will make them better programmers. All it does it make you good at C/C++. Keep it simple and learn the basics and Python doesn't get in your way and it isn't a way out. It's a fully-functioning, mature language with tons of library and framework support. If your "industry friends" tell you not to to learn Python they sound they either aren't really very experienced, extremely biased and/or really shitty at what they do. Probably a combination of the three.

I write, and have written for 5 years now, Java code every single day. My job isn't writing some bullshit CRUD app at a bank or something, but a scientific application and in data analysis. I've pushed what the language can and can't do and understand it quite well. Java is good for many things, just not for teaching someone to program.

This post was edited by rockonkenshin on Oct 18 2012 04:22pm

I read fine. And if there is one thing I have learned so far in my college experience, it is that you never want to count on one persons point of view, regardless of their ability. If a student in a writing class critiqued my paper on something, even if they weren't the best student, it was still something to think about.

If a Professor tells me a paper is fine, I still want to have other people look at it. Shit is subjective.

You are assuming that your post is correct and (again) assuming that this rockon guy would have said the same thing as you. There is no objective reasoning to support this.

If you learned to accept the fact that someone got helped by a novice (and not you), maybe this wouldn't be an issue. You mention flaws in my post (which one? the python one? because that isn't the post he quoted as to being helpful) but fail to mention flaws in your own post.

I have said this before and I will say it again: you (and seemingly everyone else here) attempt to find flaws in EVERYONE AROUND YOU before looking at yourself. I admit to my problems pretty quick, ego or not.



This post was edited by Eep on Oct 18 2012 04:38pm

So why is Python the easy way out? What do your "industry friends" tell you not to learn it? What kind of experience do you have that makes you qualified to objectively weigh the pros and cons of a language you started learning just days ago? You've been programming for three months. When I was new at programming I thought I knew enough to recommend languages but the truth was I didn't know enough about what makes a language good for quite some time and that came with more practical experience.



No, and it's laughable that you think that. Python is the embodiment of that quote you posted. It lets you completely concentrate on programming and not all of the bullshit that comes with Java and C++.

This post was edited by rockonkenshin on Oct 18 2012 04:39pm

1: I didn't start 10 days ago

2: I already said that was an opinion (regarding python), but for further development I will say that in general, when learning, I like to learn about why things work, rather than just how to make stuff. When I look at c++, I like to know what every little thing does and why it works. Variable types, syntax, etc. It might seem unimportant to you all, who already know these things, but for me it is valuable knowledge. If you were learning on python, while it is true you might learn about this stuff later, I think the context better fits learning these things earlier on. I would (personal opinion) rather know the foundation before I start to build -- some people just want to build as fast as possible.

I was bothered by things like the word 'static' that appeared or why you had to use {} for stuff or why you had to have those include <x> headers at the top. These are things that EVERYONE just kind of assumed you knew or said "don't worry about them..." Well, I DID want to worry about them, okay?

3: What kind of experience do I have to objectively weigh on pros and cons of a language? I am probably closer to the OP in experience than ANY of you. I think we can all agree to that. Which is why I offered the suggestions that I did. Regarding python, that was an opinion. Which suddenly turned into "Python is the best, eep is a newb, blah blah blah."

4: I only recommended what I did (THE FIRST POST I made, which everyone seems to ignore) because it is what I gathered from my own experience as a new student (that c++ is surprisingly good for learning) and what I took from various forums (that there is no one best language to start on, regardless of how much Irimi loves python, and that there are lots of valuable online sources to learn, like youtube or universities)

1. You just posted a thread 6 days ago telling us you were going to learn python this weekend.

2. The things you are talking about like access modifiers, bracketing, heading inclusion are language features. They don't add anything to figuring out how passing by reference vs. value works, how loops work or how data structures work for instance. You are adding pointless complication. Just because you like to learn things like this doesn't mean that it will help a non-programmer grasp programming. There's a reason top-tier schools are moving away from Java/C++ and to lisp-like languages and languages like python.

Who is telling you that C++ is a surprisingly good language for learning? What was their reasoning? I can't fucking wrap my head around why someone would say this.

This post was edited by rockonkenshin on Oct 18 2012 05:01pm

Oh I can. I so can.

The hilarious thing is, this guy with months of experience at an intro-level class is arguing against someone who's actually taught a class on intro-level programming.


These things may seem important to you. They're really not.

This post was edited by irimi on Oct 18 2012 05:12pm

Going back quite a few years ago I remember spending a lot of time helping people in my Intro to C class. People spent more time figuring out why their seemingly fine-looking code was segfaulting than actually learning how to program.

This post was edited by rockonkenshin on Oct 18 2012 05:12pm

Well, make that arguing with 2 people who have taught a class then.

I wasn't lecturing I was just another student who had a better handle on programming than my peers but even then I could see there was something really wrong with teaching C as an intro language.

lol....i was gonna answer, but...lol