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Nov 7 2019 07:02am
Very interesting article imo, certainly got me thinking.

Quote
Emmanuel Macron warns Europe: NATO is brain-dead

America is turning its back on the European project. Time to wake up, the French president tells The Economist.

EMMANUEL MACRON, the French president, has warned European countries that they can no longer rely on America to defend NATO allies. “What we are currently experiencing is the brain death of NATO,” Mr Macron declares in a blunt interview with The Economist. Europe stands on “the edge of a precipice”, he says, and needs to start thinking of itself strategically as a geopolitical power; otherwise we will “no longer be in control of our destiny.”

During the hour-long interview, conducted in his gilt-decorated office at the Elysée Palace in Paris on October 21st, the president argues that it is high time for Europe to “wake up”. He was asked whether he believed in the effectiveness of Article Five, the idea that if one NATO member is attacked all would come to its aid, which many analysts think underpins the alliance's deterrent effect. “I don't know,” he replies, “but what will Article Five mean tomorrow?”

NATO, Mr Macron says, “only works if the guarantor of last resort functions as such. I’d argue that we should reassess the reality of what NATO is in the light of the commitment of the United States.” And America, in his view, shows signs of “turning its back on us,” as it demonstrated starkly with its unexpected troop withdrawal from north-eastern Syria last month, forsaking its Kurdish allies.

In President Donald Trump, Europe is now dealing for the first time with an American president who “doesn’t share our idea of the European project”, Mr Macron says. This is happening when Europe is confronted by the rise of China and the authoritarian turn of regimes in Russia and Turkey. Moreover, Europe is being weakened from within by Brexit and political instability.

This toxic mix was “unthinkable five years ago,” Mr Macron argues. “If we don’t wake up [...] there’s a considerable risk that in the long run we will disappear geopolitically, or at least that we will no longer be in control of our destiny. I believe that very deeply.”

Mr Macron’s energetic recent diplomatic activity has drawn a great deal of interest abroad, and almost as much criticism. He has been accused of acting unilaterally (by blocking EU enlargement in the Western Balkans), and over-reaching (by trying to engineer direct talks between America and Iran). During the interview, however, the president is in a defiant but relaxed mood, sitting in shirt sleeves on the black leather sofa he has installed in the ornate salon doré, where Charles de Gaulle used to work.

The French president pushes back against his critics, for instance arguing that it is “absurd” to open up the EU to new members before reforming accession procedures, although he adds that he is ready to reconsider if such conditions are met.

Mr Macron’s underlying message is that Europe needs to start thinking and acting not only as an economic grouping, whose chief project is market expansion, but as a strategic power. That should start with regaining “military sovereignty”, and re-opening a dialogue with Russia despite suspicion from Poland and other countries that were once under Soviet domination. Failing to do so, Mr Macron says, would be a “huge mistake”.


One thing I definitely disagree with is the italic. Anti-EU sentiment is far older than five years. I can remember very vividly the resentment against the Euro among many older Dutch people, and also the referendums we had for the EU constitution, which both the Netherlands and France voted against.

And yes, the current version of the EU is too bureaucratic and intransparent. However, I prefer us creating the big bloc that can still have influence over others. Without an EU (or something equivalent), China, Russia and others (USA in the future if current trends continue) could make a meal of us if we're too occupied with infighting.

There's also the problem of Turkey if any changes to NATO were to happen. How do we deal with that?

One question I'd like to pose to ParD:

How do you currently view NATO? Should its role change, should the terms and conditions be reassessed? What would you change, if anything? I know that many here would love to see the 2% GDP contribution as a hard membership fee rather than an aspiration. Anything else?

This post was edited by balrog66 on Nov 7 2019 07:06am
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Nov 7 2019 07:10am
Nato started as a way to further American strategic interests. It incidentally furthers European security interests as well. It should continue but I don't think we have much leverage to increase EU’s contributions other than by blowing smoke.
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Nov 7 2019 07:13am
Quote (EndlessSky @ Nov 7 2019 02:10pm)
Nato started as a way to further American strategic interests. It incidentally furthers European security interests as well. It should continue but I don't think we have much leverage to increase EU’s contributions other than by blowing smoke.


Do you think it still functions well in the role of furthering American strategic interests? As it is on paper only a defensive pact, not an offensive one. Though we have seen that bending a bit with the Article 5 during War on Terror.
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Nov 7 2019 08:46am
Frenchie should build his own army. Cheapest in history, a few useless frenchies, a bundle of sticks and a few white rags.

Muppet.
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Nov 7 2019 11:20am
Quote (WNxIrvine @ 7 Nov 2019 15:46)
Frenchie should build his own army. Cheapest in history, a few useless frenchies, a bundle of sticks and a few white rags.

Muppet.


Finally Macron is just realist, he know he can't make it alone for sure: he's not that kind of fucked piece of shit that think it can built an empire by just quitting a treaty.
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Nov 7 2019 01:41pm
Quote (Saucisson6000 @ Nov 7 2019 05:20pm)
Finally Macron is just realist, he know he can't make it alone for sure: he's not that kind of fucked piece of shit that think it can built an empire by just quitting a treaty.


Then he should stfu and vote with the rest of the eu like a good dog. :)
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Nov 7 2019 01:51pm
Quote (balrog66 @ Nov 7 2019 08:13am)
Do you think it still functions well in the role of furthering American strategic interests? As it is on paper only a defensive pact, not an offensive one. Though we have seen that bending a bit with the Article 5 during War on Terror.


It's outdated insofar as there has been a shift in power globally away from European states.

When the USSR was a military superpower with enormous demographic and military strength, a defensive pact was needed to resist Soviet encroachment.

Russia today has half the population of the USSR, and it's economy is a shell of its former self. Europe needs to be able to contain this threat on its own.

The United States is strategically a Pacific power. WWII and the rise of the USSR diverted American attention for close to a century, its time to turn back East.
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Nov 7 2019 01:53pm
NATO should be phased out. the threat of russian aggression was always overstated but now doesnt even reflect reality.
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Nov 7 2019 02:06pm
i'd support establishing an EU military alliance and collectively withdraw from NATO. no more mandatory spending to feed the military industrial complex, no 'defending' of our allies who provoked wars to further their economic interests, realistic threat assessment and provisioning of equipment relevant to the alliance's tasks. that'd be great...


inb4 the inevitable 'b-b-but russia would just invade you if america didn't protect you - we are paying for your security' bullshit
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Nov 7 2019 02:27pm
Quote (fender @ 7 Nov 2019 15:06)
i'd support establishing an EU military alliance and collectively withdraw from NATO. no more mandatory spending to feed the military industrial complex, no 'defending' of our allies who provoked wars to further their economic interests, realistic threat assessment and provisioning of equipment relevant to the alliance's tasks. that'd be great...


inb4 the inevitable 'b-b-but russia would just invade you if america didn't protect you - we are paying for your security' bullshit


you are delusional. we WANT you to take care of yourself, wipe your own ass, etc.
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