simple fact: if we instituted a Day 1 changeover of healthcare to all public in America chaos would ensue, that would eventually subside, and in the meantime healthcare shortages and failures of the paperwork system would result in very real deaths and serious negative health outcomes for a large number of Americans. eventually, perhaps over 5-10 years, the issues would go away and we'd be left with an objectively better healthcare system on average for many americans, especially the poor. but in the short term, deaths and lack of care for many americans and absolute chaos in hospitals, as well as workers in the insurance industry losing their jobs.

and what do you hear from liberals when u say you're not for immediate medicare for all? "you dont care about people that are dying".

they're just jurors who can't stomach to see people put to death even though they'll gleefully vote guilty.

did you notice that when Bazi, and actual doctor, said all of this, no hardcore liberal touched his post with a 10 foot pole. liberals are experts at ignoring experts, just as everyone outside of center is. wants driven by emotion, not facts.

If a government-run healthcare plan is indeed superior to private plans, then a public option would, gradually and over many years, absorb the private market anyway. If the priors of the proponents of M4A are true, then a public option will be a soft launch for M4A anyway, just without the side effects you just described.

But as usual, they want everything, and they want it now. (Same story as with FFF: "we want you to abandon all fossils NOW" - no bitch, you dont, because if we did that, we'd be living in a postapocalyptic mad max world.)
This whole debate about M4A vs public option really only serves as a purity test within liberal circles.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Mar 17 2020 07:35am

the public option is completely fine on paper, as it THEORETICALLY addresses the completely irrational and dishonest, but somehow still effective talking points about the 'completely incompetent government' and 'millions being kicked off their healthcare plan' (also a favourite amongst corporate shills). HOWEVER, given the political influence the insurance industry has in america, it will be impossible to implement in an even remotely fair or meaningful way. no one beholden to those fucks could even hope to introduce something that would undermine their precious profits - and you know that as well as i do.

of course a vague promise of implementing the perfect system, that addresses all the (fabricated) concerns, polls better than a concrete plan to actually fix a completely broken system - especially with all the propaganda and fearmongering about the latter. but you're completely disregarding political feasibility, acting like empty words, designed to save the insurance industry against a rising desire for universal healthcare, are just as good as concrete plans, based on long held principles by someone uncorrupted by the people responsible for the mess. biden's 'plan' is really just a more eloquent version of trump's 'we're going to have the best healthcare in the universe, believe me' - before claiming that 'no one knew healthcare was so complicated', and trying to abolish obamacare...

have you already forgotten who actually determines policy in washington? it's NOT the people, it's special interest. i'm telling you right now that should biden (or any other establishment puppet) become president, this will NOT change the terrible healthcare situation in america.



as to your hackery about supposed 'liberal arguments': which countries handled this crisis the best? do they have universal healthcare or not? there is a difference between a system in place, run by experts in that field, and an administration setting certain policies or defunding certain things. there are plenty of really terrible administrations in many countries in the world right now - but somehow not a single one of them just unilaterally abolished universal healthcare. you're mixing up two different things here, in order to manufacture cheap talking points. hacks gonna hack...

yup. the bolded describes it perfectly. its a false binary on which they test each other.



so true my friend

This post was edited by thesnipa on Mar 17 2020 08:55am

heinrich would call bazi a white supremacist cultist if he saw that post lmao

All democrats who support this person fully deserve 4 more years of Trump.

He's'arguably even worse than Hillary Clinton. Truly a disgrace.

People who are okay with Trump's presidency will find any excuse not to support his opponent.

if you can type out a credible way Bernie can fix corruption and healthcare in america, by getting the senate/congress to vote for that plan, ill vote bernie in the primary coming up.

no joke, 1 paragraph of typing and you can buy my vote if you have an actual plan. i dont vote for dreams or direction, people who do are idiots.

I guess your second paragraph is where we disagree.

We need people like Bernie in office, and we need them everywhere. You're probably right when you imply that Bernie alone cannot fix these issues, but there is a possibility of starting a trend where we vote for people (in congress, presidency, everything) who aren't puppets on a string for corporations and billionaires.

Furthermore, if Democrats vote a person like Bernie into presidency, it can be a trigger for the Republican party to evolve towards the left. That alone would be fantastic for the future of America, and does not require anything from congress or the senate..

here's the thing tho, your plan is based on the hope that electing bernie triggers a response to move towards being progressive over a long period of time. and im assuming in your post you admit bernie cant get shit done for 4-8 years, because he's just a catalyst.

biden wont get much done either, but he will get some things done. some expansion of medicate, some ineffectual gun control, etc.

so what it ends up being is a small provable amount of progress vs. a big hope that progress happens eventually.

a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, i think you foreigners just have so many birds in hand u dont get that. u can make fun of us taking crumbs from billionaires, but it beats starving.

and really, if bernie gets elected there will be a tea party 2.0 that stops the right from moving left at all. corona virus has a better chance and moving them left than 8 years of bernie followed by 8 years of warren. humans are too emotional to react to who's potus and move, they need fear and desperation.