75-100 (after 1-50;50-75): Preface, the statement explored was: did the topic descend into insanity in these posts. The question is very open ended as one person's view of insanity will vary from another. Presumably, Albert Einstein wrote "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". To apply this logic to the thread we would need to see if people learn and change their approach.

without further ado:


One of the voices of reason in this topic. A credit to this website. It does however point to the Israeli's collective punishment method of operation "MO".


this refers to the numbers of dead palestinians throughout the decades long conflict (it didnt start 07/10) by an order of magnitude greater then Jewish/Israeli. Israel does not do proportionate responses.

reason continues:


in my opinion the best post in this entire thread. the response was:


I disagree with this view but thats OK. but there was a response:


Handcuffs I want your babies.

that went on for a while then we had this:


Hamas carried out a terrorist attack, however they lack the ability to wipe Israel off the map. Meanwhile, Israel is literally, wiping the palestinians off the map. Therefore Fender is right here and Elite is not right.


Fender posting quite well in this topic (or well, he was until he was kicked out of the sub section)


quite a bit of this from Elite


fenders position. reasonable but it looks like this is an impossibility now. Israel will not bow to international pressure (read: to Us pressure, which is non-existent on this matter).

a proximity post sanctioned for attacking hamsterbaby (post 2008). nothing new there. this followed by the same thing with meanwhile (post 2010). Hamsterbaby then responded and was also sanctioned (2012). alot of petty snipes between users without much substance. here is a typical exchange:




This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 30 2024 04:16pm

Correction: Besides malnutrition, sanctions lead to a lack of both medicine and medical equipment, which was one of the major factors for driving up infant mortality rates. Most deaths were not children, but new borns, babies and toddlers.

This post was edited by ownyaah on Mar 30 2024 04:14pm

Lol ferdia
Enjoying your review

The UN reported that in the month since Oct. 7, 820 Palestinians have been displaced in the West Bank, and attacks by Israeli settlers have increased from an average of three to seven per day. In the month since Oct. 7, more than 400 attacks were carried out in the region, resulting in death of nine Palestinians. Palestinians emphasize that the constant expansion of illegal Jewish settlements, recognized as such under international law, is one of the biggest threats to the establishment of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders and is causing fragmentation in the West Bank. Armed Jewish settlers living in these areas frequently attack Palestinians and force them to leave their homes. Israeli and international human rights organizations accuse Israeli forces of protecting the settlers who carry out these attacks.

The tragedy that befell the Dawabsheh family is one of the most tragic examples of these attacks. The Palestinian family's house in the village of Duma near the West Bank city of Nablus was set on fire by Jewish settlers on the morning of July 31, 2015. As a result, the family's 18-month-old child, Ali, was killed in the fire. The father, 31-year-old Saad Dawabsheh and mother, 28-year-old Riham Dawabsheh and their other child, 4-year-old Ahmed, were seriously injured and taken to the hospital. However, doctors could not save Saad and Riham and they died. The only surviving family member, Ahmed, suffered burns on 60% of his body. Left without his parents, he now lives under the care of his grandfather and uncle in Duma. Like other Palestinians in the West Bank, Ahmed continues to witness the increasing settler violence. In Duma, where an Anadolu team went to visit the Dawabsheh family's home for an interview, there is an eerie calm after recent settler attacks. Burned vehicles are conspicuous at the entrance of the village, where there is no traffic or people on the streets. During the visit, Ahmed, now 13 years old, was playing with his cousin in his uncle's house. He appeared shy and reserved but had a cheerful demeanor. 'They suffocate us from all sides'

Hussein Dawabsheh, Ahmed's grandfather, who lost his daughter, son-in-law and grandson in the arson attack, said that since the tragedy they endured in 2015, violence by fanatical Jewish settlers against the Palestinian people has been on the rise. "For example, to go out in the street, you have to make a thousand calculations. You have to take care to avoid being attacked by Jewish settlers and you are afraid. Jewish settlers can stop you and kill you. In other words, the situation is very bad," he said. Asked how Palestinians cope with this chronic problem, which paralyzes their daily lives, he responded: "We are Muslims, and we believe in destiny and fate. Our dead have become martyrs; they have risen to the Lord of the worlds, Allah. But after them, those who suffer are their families, siblings and their homeland. Everyone is going through this pain.” “Although we are the ones who are victimized, they consider us terrorists. They treat us as terrorists at any time. In any situation, Israel cancels the work permits of our children working in the Israeli areas. They suffocate us from all sides," he told Anadolu.

'We killed three, now it's the fourth's turn' According to Hussein Dawabsheh, the behavior of Jewish settlers after the disaster that befell them was no different from the atrocity they committed. "For them, nothing had happened. They were singing and dancing. In their songs, they said, 'We killed three. Now it's the fourth's turn.' We saw them repeatedly say on social media 'It is a mistake for this child to live. We killed his mother, father and sibling. Now he will take revenge.'” “Imagine being afraid of a 4-year-old child. They started this. They are the source of violence. It's not us."

Nasr Dawabsheh, Ahmed's uncle, said the settler attacks did not start with the attacks on Gaza but had been increasing during this period. "With the attack on Gaza, Jewish settlers along with the Israeli army and this fanatical Israeli government were given permission to organize attacks to kill Palestinians," he said. Emphasizing that they cannot go out in the streets, he said: "If you are going out into the streets, you need to say your goodbyes to your family and children because you may not come back home." Noting that the olive harvest season has begun, he said: "For example, these days are the season for picking olives. As soon as the attack on Gaza started, four vehicles were burned here by Jewish settlers and a young Palestinian was also injured. They even prevented the ambulance from taking this young man to the hospital." “They also attempted to attack the village and get in. These attacks continue every day. There is a clear and systematic attack. These Jewish settlers have permission to shoot at any Palestinian, whether they are women, men, children or the elderly." Nasr Dawabsheh continued, saying: "Terrorism is practiced against the Palestinian people. Not only since Oct. 7 but for a long time. This terrorism has been going on in the West Bank. In recent times, it has increased even more. As I said, this is a systematic terrorism and planned.” “They sent various threatening letters to many villages and towns. In these letters, it said, 'You either voluntarily go to the east of the Jordan River or you will be killed.'"

Children in Palestine ‘have grown up now' Eight years after the tragedy, Ahmed's current situation was also mentioned by his uncle. "He lost his mother, father and sibling. No matter what we do for him, we cannot replace his parents. Regardless of the occasion, whether it's a graduation, holidays or birthdays, whatever we offer him will always be lacking. In Palestine, children have grown up now. "Ahmed has gone through a long healing process. At school, the teacher asked the students to draw pictures of their families, and he drew four people. Despite knowing that his family is no longer alive, he still insists that there are four people. Imagine how you would convince this child that his family no longer exists,” he said. "God kept him alive for a purpose, so that he may be a symbol against the occupiers until the Day of Judgment."

=============

from reading quite a lot of the Israeli news (in english) from their websites, the west bank appears to be considered conquered land, its just that there are palestinians still living there. The issue appears to be that Israel is ever encroaching on these palestinian families and driving them out of the westbank in order to solidify the positon from "occupied" to "claimed". This is best visualized by the timelapse maps of the Westbank which show it ever being reduced and fragmented. To my mind it is well beyond a tipping point, there is no chance for a 2 state solution, we will see total ethnic cleansing in the years ahead, no change in policy. I cant figure out what israel will look like once they have killed or driven out all the palestinians from Gaza, The West Bank and Israel. The solution / policy being adopted by Israel is not new to humanity, we have seen it before and will see it again. We are a violent species.



there is a great quote in this video at 10:00 ~ "The Western Media, even subconsciously, is aware, that it is feeding into the narrative, of the demise of its own standing."

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 30 2024 04:46pm

So the 'voice of reason' are the people whom you agree with. Got it. On another note, and i'm confident i'm not the first one to tell you this, but your position regarding Ukraine is really inconsistent with Gaza.



That user is referring to the following post;

https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=102073482&f=119&p=652346184

Not only did the sarcasm flew over the user's head. He then went out of his way to cherry pick part of the comment into his signature. He was obviously called out but refused to retract.


YeeHaw's signature
Quote (WiziLiCe @ Oct 11 2023 04:03pm)
They deserved it / had it coming for terrorizing Palestinians years on end before they were even conceived

Do not forget these sick, sick people feel this way about white people also.

I had a debate earlier on what constitutes "common sense" or, to quote you "voice of reason". The opposing side was of the view that there is no such thing as common sense and that it is subjective. There is of course merit in that view. I counter argued that there are some universal points that can be considered common sense / reasonable. for instance (a) 1+1 = 2 and (b) women and children should be protected. There was a bit of back and forth on the latter point noting, for example, south american cultures of cannibalism and human sacrifice (including women and children) which normalized such behavior. i.e. common sense and reason at that time suggested/opined that it was reasonable to eat people and kill women and children. My argument is that notwithstanding historic and minority cultures (is that even an expression) in the world we currently live in, in 2024, common sense, reason, suggests that harming women and children is wrong. The UN constitutes most of the countries on the planet, and our planet has 7.9 billion people. The US has 333M and Israel has 9M. When viewing UN voting related to Israel, we see that the world does not support what Israel is doing. Either the world, the majority, is reasonable, or it is unreasonable and the minority is reasonable. Based on historic examples of genocide, I would contend that the world is on the right side of history on this point. You are free to disagree, or be, unreasonable.

On an aside, thank you for posting that quote, I tried and failed to find it. no clue how you found it but again, well done. If you want to debate the merits of reason with Israeli internal policy, just make a statement and we can debate, or alternatively, my statement is:

Israeli internal policy as related to Gaza, the West Bank and Greater Israel is unreasonable. The continued ethnic cleansing throughout Greater Israel (I refer here to Israel, Gaza and the West Bank) of Palestinians; the oppression of Palestinians; is an affront to world norms and is neither normal, reasonable or justified. Discuss.

Finally the question raised which led to my review of the first 100 pages was and my view having read those pages was: No, not insanity. I provided my finding, above, which was: In the main, after thinking about it for a bit, on reflection, a terrorist act took place, and Israel responded. during this period of time the supporters of the policies adopted (up to Oct 18th 2023) show little or no empathy for civilians. This is not evidence of insanity, and therefore I disagree that the narrative in the thread is insane. Radical, fundamentalist and racist, happy to condone ethnic cleansing, collective punishment and flattening gaza, but not insane.

trusting this clarifies.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 30 2024 05:58pm

How so?

Starting in 1991 and continuing to this day, Ukraine has traveled an inexorable path towards western integration. Initially, Ukraine focused on establishing state institutions, formulating its foreign policy, etc. Relations with the West during this period were characterized by cautious (but optimistic) engagement as Ukraine sought to balance its ties with both Western and Eastern partners, specifically, Russia. The issue with Ukraine is it is beside Russia and therefore geopolitical alignment (keeping Russia happy) while pursuing a relationship with the West is like trying to destroy the death star or, to give an other example, like trying to find that one future where Thanos is beaten. Ultimately Ukraine could not find that one path where they became completely western aligned, averted war with Russia and lived happily ever after. Instead, in 2014, the US backed coup led to the collapse of the Ukrianian - Russia relationship, followed by 8 years of army build up, culminating in war with Russia. If I were asked to explain it in one sentence: Ukraine moved too fast to align itself to the EU and, more importantly, Nato. Russia is the aggressor, noting its security concerns were never addressed, culminating into the current state of affairs.

Ukraine's policy of forced migration of its Russian minorities to Russia could be likened to Israels forced migration of Palestinians out of Israel.

Israel was established as a modern state on May 14, 1948. At the time, the idea was a two-state solution, with a separate Jewish and Arab state. Time has shown that Israel was having none of that, as it continued to erode the notion of the Palestinian state. Israel has, for a long time now, pursued a policy of ethnic cleansing, forced migration and terror on the Palestinian people and the eventual goal, as can be clearly evidenced on maps, is to remove all Palestinians from Greater Israel (Gaza, The West Bank and Israel). Israel is the aggressor, noting the land that they are living in was home to people, who Israel have proceeded to remove.

Understand when I use the words "Ukraine, Russia, Israel and Palestinian" I am referring to governments/policies and not everyone in those countries. Also I am not trying to be antagonistic, I am answering your question. Happy to debate this point, but would suggest Ukraine/Russian questions be asked in that topic and Palestinian/Israel talking points be asked in this topic.

Provided Israel stops bombing other countries the likelihood is that there wont be an escalation as related to what it does within Greater Israel. The world has clearly shown that no one cares about the Palestinians (by this i mean, willing to do something about it). In contrast, the Ukraine war is ever escalating and the outbreak of a global war is edging closer and closer to reality.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 31 2024 04:31am

On 1947 Israel accepted the UN resolution that divide the land and formed a country on 1948
What happened the day after the Declaration of Independence?

This post was edited by Many_Names on Mar 31 2024 08:13am

its a rhetorical question? i believe the arab nations declared war though. if this is not the answer, this is still the most salient point / event after the declaration, in my opinion. This is however not relevant to the position held, but rather it is a historical point of fact. The statement was that my position on Israel is different from my position re: Russia, and I outlined my reasons why. The international community bestowed Israel on the Israeli people. The Arab countries were affronted by this and declared war. Israel won the war. In the aftermath of the war Israel claimed more land by right of conquest and this was the birth/inception of the mass displacement of arabs/palestinians which continues to this day. ultimately the UN decision looks to have been flawed. The UN should have gotten consensus with the countries in the region before going down this path. At this point, its all just footnotes in history, you cant change the past, better to try to find a future.

I will ask you a question:

Do you believe that the Israeli government is seeking to remove all Palestinians from Greater Israel (Gaza, The West Bank and Israel as a whole) Yes or No? feel free to expand your response beyond the binary answer.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 31 2024 08:36am