oh, wow, you saved me from double post, ty! anyway:



This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 27 2024 12:43pm

I was referring to the Palestinian chant “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” as of free from me who occupies it and hence the desire to get rid off (and I’m being gentle here) from whoever they see as their occupier.

The rest of what you wrote is well known here. About Israeli policies up until now the policy was keeping the status quo for the last 50 years. A policy that blew in our face at 10/7.
Currently I’m conflicting between two alternatives. One is a full out total war which ends with the Palestinians relocation to a different country (Egypt, Jordan w/e) and the second is to control whole of Israel (including Gaza and West Bank) , denazify them , rebuild everything and after some time all of them will be Israelis with equal
Rights etc.

There is quite alot in your post so I will deal with them one by one, if you give me the time to edit this post.

1. The chant from the river to the sea, is an Israeli chant as I understand it? Yes Palestinians have adopted their own version of it, but the chant is originally Israeli, or do you dispute this ? The guardian quotes:



Even Benni uses it today, unless this is a misquote:



2. I dont understand this fixation on 10/7. An event similar to 10/7 was inevitable to my mind. The status quo in Israel for the last 50 years and, if continued for the next 50 years, is not sustainable. you cannot brutalize a group of people and not expect consequences. This in no way justifies such events but rather is highlighting that the treatment of palestinians and of non jews living in the westbank, for decades, is deplorable. You are welcome to try to refute this, but saying they are animals, sub human, hamapalestinians or lesser beings does not win the debate.

Relating to your alternatives, and understand (a) I am leaving morals at the door and (b) we had this same discussion at the end of last year when I said something along these lines:

scenario 1: total war, which should include gaza and the westbank, this would create lebensraum throughout israel and is the cleanest solution, albeit not palatable to many people. This, i presume would result in a single jewish state, for jews, with laws earmarked for jews only as anything less will cause issues to emerge in the long term. This WOULD solve the problem.
scenario 2: (i will address the comment of denazify below) this is doomed to fail and is effectively the current situation which in some quarters is suggested as an apartheid regime. Thing will never be the same. Israel has killed approx 32,000 people and probably injured another 90,000 (using 1:3 ratio which is generally accepted). Israel continues to steal, or occupy if you prefer the term, more and more land in the west bank, so even if you quote "denazify them" they will be radicalized by the policies which continue to be implemented (tortured, forced ethnic cleansing of the west bank).

In terms of the expression "denazify" it was by me said last year - Israel does not have the exclusive right to call its enemies nazi's. the simple fact is the west bank, and gaza, are lebensraum. This is a very difficult pill for me to swallow noting my own heritage.



i.e. dont call palestinians nazi's, as your living in a glass house and the same accusation can be thrown back with a crap tonne of supporting evidence / documents / video's.

This post was edited by ferdia on Mar 27 2024 01:05pm

Ohh rightttt that’s why Hamas went on 10/7. The settlements.. I thought it was El aqsa? After all they called the campaign after it.
As far as I concern the entire thing is Israel including the so called Palestinians.

if you keep bulldozing houses in a land that doesnt belong to you, steal that land, treat your neighbors like subhumans, humiliate and intimidate them for decades , what do you think will happen? its typical for bullies to treat people like shit and then cry when they finally get punched in the face
Israelis seem to think they are above reproach because of their history but how disgusting is it that a people who have lived through horrors can so easily justify committing those same horrors on another population? it blows my fucking mind how hypocritical it is

Simple: Their ultra-religious population has the highest birthrate on the planet. Grows twice faster than "regular" Israelis.
Plot: Bigger and bigger share of these ultra-religious is deepening into the holy war logic, that's the final problem IMHO.

You describe it as black and white, good and bad etc while in reality , in this conflict there is nothing of that sort.
The amount of Palestinian propaganda in your head is beyond me and that is one of the biggest Israeli failures there is.
I’m not saying there isn’t injustice sometimes. I’m saying it’s not as big as you think it is. And definitely nothing like you describe.
I know it because I was there as a soldier and saw it first hand. The distance between the news to what actually is happening is vast. Our country fails at it every time.

OK so what is stating here is that that the ultra right party / ideology / culture that exists within Israel, will only strengthen over time. And that, to my mind, suggests that long term Israel is in deep shit, or politely, in deep doo doo. I am happy for meanwhile to be refuted, but I note that I will support him as his position mirrors mine. (we dont agree on alot of things but on this we do).

Israel fails at it because it gets caught lying constantly and it's increasingly hard for ANYONE to believe anything it produces, especially when your prime minister is as corrupt as they come.

"we dont target civilians"
"we dont target hospitals"
"we dont target medics or NGO workers"
"we dont target schools"

you see the pattern here?



how much longer do you think your country can survive him? he is a bigger threat to Israel's security than Hamas is

This post was edited by gnarjay on Mar 27 2024 01:09pm

That's a good point by you actually; it's important to distinguish between political support for israel and bibi. I'm not sure what happens if certain members leave, maybe the coalition dissolves and a snap election is called? Either way (imo) unless bibi doubles down and corrects the current course Israel is on, his days are numbered. It's good that you're posting in this topic again, different perspectives are always needed.