d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Official Joe Biden 2020 Thread
Prev19169179189199201037Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 47,103
Joined: Sep 5 2016
Gold: 100.00
Jul 21 2022 11:57am
Quote (Sioux @ Jul 21 2022 09:24am)
The people disputing coronavirus in 2022 are the same people that would have been HIV/AIDS denialists in 1990.


would have been ...........covid kookery

Quote (thesnipa @ Jul 21 2022 09:26am)
people dont die from a gunshot wound to the heart, they die of blood loss, or hopefully much later from lead poisoning.


no dude gunshot victims die of covid
Member
Posts: 50,833
Joined: Jan 20 2010
Gold: 5,846.00
Jul 21 2022 12:28pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/21/opinion/bret-stephens-trump-voters.html

Quote
I Was Wrong About Trump Voters
By Bret Stephens
Opinion Columnist

The worst line I ever wrote as a pundit — yes, I know, it’s a crowded field — was the first line I ever wrote about the man who would become the 45th president: “If by now you don’t find Donald Trump appalling, you’re appalling.”

This opening salvo, from August 2015, was the first in what would become dozens of columns denouncing Trump as a unique threat to American life, democratic ideals and the world itself. I regret almost nothing of what I said about the man and his close minions. But the broad swipe at his voters caricatured them and blinkered me.

It also probably did more to help than hinder Trump’s candidacy. Telling voters they are moral ignoramuses is a bad way of getting them to change their minds.

What were they seeing that I wasn’t?

That ought to have been the first question to ask myself. When I looked at Trump, I saw a bigoted blowhard making one ignorant argument after another. What Trump’s supporters saw was a candidate whose entire being was a proudly raised middle finger at a self-satisfied elite that had produced a failing status quo.

I was blind to this. Though I had spent the years of Barack Obama’s presidency denouncing his policies, my objections were more abstract than personal. I belonged to a social class that my friend Peggy Noonan called “the protected.” My family lived in a safe and pleasant neighborhood. Our kids went to an excellent public school. I was well paid, fully insured, insulated against life’s harsh edges.

Trump’s appeal, according to Noonan, was largely to people she called “the unprotected.” Their neighborhoods weren’t so safe and pleasant. Their schools weren’t so excellent. Their livelihoods weren’t so secure. Their experience of America was often one of cultural and economic decline, sometimes felt in the most personal of ways.

It was an experience compounded by the insult of being treated as losers and racists —clinging, in Obama’s notorious 2008 phrase, to “guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren’t like them.”

No wonder they were angry.

Anger can take dumb or dangerous turns, and with Trump they often took both. But that didn’t mean the anger was unfounded or illegitimate, or that it was aimed at the wrong target.

Trump voters had a powerful case to make that they had been thrice betrayed by the nation’s elites. First, after 9/11, when they had borne much of the brunt of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, only to see Washington fumble and then abandon the efforts. Second, after the financial crisis of 2008, when so many were being laid off, even as the financial class was being bailed out. Third, in the post-crisis recovery, in which years of ultralow interest rates were a bonanza for those with investable assets and brutal for those without.

Oh, and then came the great American cultural revolution of the 2010s, in which traditional practices and beliefs — regarding same-sex marriage, sex-segregated bathrooms, personal pronouns, meritocratic ideals, race-blind rules, reverence for patriotic symbols, the rules of romance, the presumption of innocence and the distinction between equality of opportunity and outcome — became, more and more, not just passé, but taboo.

It’s one thing for social mores to evolve over time, aided by respect for differences of opinion. It’s another for them to be abruptly imposed by one side on another, with little democratic input but a great deal of moral bullying.

This was the climate in which Trump’s campaign flourished. I could have thought a little harder about the fact that, in my dripping condescension toward his supporters, I was also confirming their suspicions about people like me — people who talked a good game about the virtues of empathy but practice it only selectively; people unscathed by the country’s problems yet unembarrassed to propound solutions.

I also could have given Trump voters more credit for nuance.

For every in-your-face MAGA warrior there were plenty of ambivalent Trump supporters, doubtful of his ability and dismayed by his manner, who were willing to take their chances on him because he had the nerve to defy deeply flawed conventional pieties.

Nor were they impressed by Trump critics who had their own penchant for hypocrisy and outright slander. To this day, precious few anti-Trumpers have been honest with themselves about the elaborate hoax — there’s just no other word for it — that was the Steele dossier and all the bogus allegations, credulously parroted in the mainstream media, that flowed from it.

A final question for myself: Would I be wrong to lambaste Trump’s current supporters, the ones who want him back in the White House despite his refusal to accept his electoral defeat and the historic outrage of Jan. 6?

Morally speaking, no. It’s one thing to take a gamble on a candidate who promises a break with business as usual. It’s another to do that with an ex-president with a record of trying to break the Republic itself.

But I would also approach these voters in a much different spirit than I did the last time. “A drop of honey catches more flies than a gallon of gall,” noted Abraham Lincoln early in his political career. “If you would win a man to your cause, first convince him that you are his sincere friend.” Words to live by, particularly for those of us in the business of persuasion.


This post was edited by Goomshill on Jul 21 2022 12:28pm
Member
Posts: 47,103
Joined: Sep 5 2016
Gold: 100.00
Jul 21 2022 12:57pm
Quote (Goomshill @ Jul 21 2022 11:28am)


hes still a doofus, hes faking it
Member
Posts: 35,291
Joined: Aug 17 2004
Gold: 12,730.67
Jul 21 2022 01:41pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Jul 21 2022 07:40am)
It will take a long time. The Democratic party infrastructure is staffed with upper-middle class, urban white millennials. They're the ones dictating a large chunk of party policy, and the Biden's of the world are just following along.

Trading working and middle class Hispanics for a small share of white suburbanites is a terrible trade to make. Obama's electoral college advantage has completely collapsed. I have a hard time seeing how they can pivot when their intellectual class considers these foundational moral issues.


When you lose elections, you're forced to adapt. If Democrats were able to pick up the majority of educated whites this quickly, there's no doubt in my mind that they'll abandon unpopular issues (or at least not talk about them) so that they can court additional voters. The same principle applies to Republicans. How many times did we hear that the GOP is dead? The GOP has changed it's mind on so many things the past 5 years that it's difficult to keep track. There's nothing wrong with this b/c the parties are a loose coalition of often disparate ideas.
Member
Posts: 47,103
Joined: Sep 5 2016
Gold: 100.00
Jul 21 2022 01:46pm
Quote (thundercock @ Jul 21 2022 12:41pm)
When you lose elections, you're forced to adapt. If Democrats were able to pick up the majority of educated whites this quickly, there's no doubt in my mind that they'll abandon unpopular issues (or at least not talk about them) so that they can court additional voters. The same principle applies to Republicans. How many times did we hear that the GOP is dead? The GOP has changed it's mind on so many things the past 5 years that it's difficult to keep track. There's nothing wrong with this b/c the parties are a loose coalition of often disparate ideas.


you mean lie........

trumpers are not really GOP trumpers turned their back on both parties
Member
Posts: 35,291
Joined: Aug 17 2004
Gold: 12,730.67
Jul 21 2022 02:19pm
Quote (Goomshill @ Jul 21 2022 11:28am)


Brett Stephens is such a dweeb lol. He literally tried to have someone fired for calling him a "bedbug."

I think the issue with his analysis is that most Trump voters LIKE being mad. The only thing that makes them happy is when liberals cry (which is very easy to do) so I'm not sure how you can "win" them over without sacrificing some of your constituents.
Member
Posts: 53,368
Joined: Sep 2 2004
Gold: 57.00
Jul 21 2022 09:58pm
Quote (thundercock @ 21 Jul 2022 16:19)
Brett Stephens is such a dweeb lol. He literally tried to have someone fired for calling him a "bedbug."

I think the issue with his analysis is that most Trump voters LIKE being mad. The only thing that makes them happy is when liberals cry (which is very easy to do) so I'm not sure how you can "win" them over without sacrificing some of your constituents.

i dont know, in 2018-most of 2019 most of his supporters were not mad at anything other than the stupid impeachment proceedings. a significant cohort definitely has the siege mentality but it's not the overwhelming force. people were pretty tame back then and i was in a very lefty city at the time. late 2019 almost everyone was just like eh whatever orange man sucks but hes gonna win again at least shit is going relatively smoothly.

2020 just fubar'd everything
Member
Posts: 33,925
Joined: Oct 9 2008
Gold: 2,528.52
Jul 22 2022 05:48am
Quote (Goomshill @ Jul 21 2022 02:28pm)


How was he allowed to write this without being fired???

LOL

Quote (thundercock @ Jul 21 2022 04:19pm)
Brett Stephens is such a dweeb lol. He literally tried to have someone fired for calling him a "bedbug."

I think the issue with his analysis is that most Trump voters LIKE being mad. The only thing that makes them happy is when liberals cry (which is very easy to do) so I'm not sure how you can "win" them over without sacrificing some of your constituents.


I mean surely you agree about Obama dousing fuel on the postmodern derp fire at least.

Being mad isn't something unique to Trumpers. Have you seen antifa?

This post was edited by EndlessSky on Jul 22 2022 05:50am
Member
Posts: 105,138
Joined: Apr 25 2006
Gold: 10,475.00
Jul 22 2022 06:23am
Quote (Goomshill @ Jul 21 2022 02:28pm)




This is just TDS version 2.
The "I said trump was bad, and I was wrong... but NOW when I say Trump is bad... I am right".
Or the "I trusted the left and I was wrong... but NOW when I say to trust the left, I am right".


The left still controls the media, and are now just pretending to be... fair and open minded. Even though they are still selling the same BS.
This article is just an example of "How to sell a pack of lies the right way".

My only hope is that those who fell for it last time... will wise up, this time.

This post was edited by Ghot on Jul 22 2022 06:25am
Member
Posts: 18,211
Joined: Jul 15 2014
Gold: 107.77
Jul 22 2022 08:08am
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev19169179189199201037Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll