I find it easy to masturbate when 2 religious egos duke it out over whose interpretation of a 2000 year old fairy tale is more correct.

you have a weird sense of things that arouse you.

I can't imagine what kind of porn you enjoy watching...

The bible answered your issues, but you aren't listening.

The salvation ALWAYS precedes the baptism because Baptism is NOT the gospel. It's believing the gospel that saves, NOT water baptism. Being indwelled with the Holy Spirit is a type of Baptism that happens the moment that we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. He also Seals the believer, meaning that we cannot lose our salvation. Baptism is NOT the gospel. It's the Gospel that saves. Baptism ALWAYS comes AFTER salvation.

Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The great commission is the go into the entire world and preach the gospe. The baptism comes after salvation.

yep

This post was edited by Torm1 on Mar 13 2012 08:14am

I never said baptism was the gospel. I said it is part of the gospel. The good news is that Jesus died for our sins and offered us a place of eternity if we believe, repent, and are baptized. All 3 of those are in the gospel. You are separating them, I am not. I believe baptism is a necessary part of salvation (just as much as belief and repentance is).

I also am failing to see how you are making "baptism of the spirit" the baptism that is spoken of on the day of pentecost. It is not. You are obviously from a Baptist denomination.

If the baptism in Acts chapter 2 was the baptism of the Holy Spirit (like you claim), then why did the 2nd half of verse 8 say "and you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit"? They are 2 separate things, that's why. Peter makes it clear that you do not recieve forgiveness or the Holy Spirit UNTIL baptism takes place.



Again the image of being baptized and having your sins forgiven. I don't understand why are you separating baptism from this. It is essential and it is spoken of in just about EVERY conversion story in the NT. Only Jesus has the power to forgive, but water baptism symbolizes that forgiveness and as you said, we do it out of obedience. Repenting is also out of obedience so I don't know why you are saying baptism is an "obedience" only thing. It is tied to salvation. The difference between you and I is that I take the bible as 100%. You are reading 95% (like you said in your own words) and coming to a conclusion.

Also, faith resulting in action is the same exact thing I said. It is because we have faith that we believe (an action), repent (action), and are baptized (action). They are all tied together. Again, no idea why you feel the need to separate them.





Notice how that is all one sentence. It is ALL equally important. He doesn't say "make disciples AND THEN baptize them. I also don't see "preach the gospel" in that sentence as you say. But you and I both agree that that is how disciples are made.

This post was edited by Dune1 on Mar 13 2012 10:21am

You are adding to the gospel. The good news is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. If baptism were part of the gospel then why did Paul say 1Co 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Paul makes a very clear disctinction between the two and even has his helpers do the baptizing. It's not part of the gospel. It's a first act of obedience for a new believer.




I believe that Baptism is a symbol of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. That's why I believe in immersion.


Baptism does NOT save.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This verse doesn't say that baptism saves. Look at the explanation of the verse. That which is born of flesh is flesh (water represents fleshly birth, the mother's womb contains water), that which is born of Spirit is spirit (Spiritual birth)

Mr 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. {for: or, unto}

Lu 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

As far as baptism saving you, it is the baptism of repentence that saves, not water baptism. The baptism is an outward showing of what happens when you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior. It is NOT salvation, nor is it part of it. It is a believer's act of obedience.

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(KJV)

Look at this verse. At first glance it appears as though baptism saves. But it says "He that believeth not shall be damned." He is not damned for not being baptized.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(KJV)

The baptism being talked about is a good concience toward God not water baptism. It says "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" but what? "a good conscience toward God"

Here are verses regarding Salvation:

Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Where is baptism mentioned here for Salvation?

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}
(KJV)

What did it just say?

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Where is baptism mentioned here?

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Where is baptism mentioned here?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It says it is by grace through faith, not baptism.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(KJV)

It says whosoever believeth in Him. Where is baptism meantioned here?

If baptism were necessary for salvation surely it would have been mentioned in these important passages.

You cannot possess the Holy Ghost unless you are saved right?

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

They were already saved and possessed the Holy Ghost and they had not been baptized yet.

Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Where is baptism mentioned here?

Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

I believe that some of those verses that you believe are talking about water baptism are actually talking about being baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Baptism is not mentioned here.

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The Door is Jesus Christ. We enter in by accepting Him.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

We open the door by receiving Him, what He did on the cross for us to pay for our sins. Baptism is an act of obedience. It is a public profession of faith.

Lu 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

This theif couldn't be baptized and Jesus Christ told him what? Today thou shalt be with me in paradise. Because He asked Jesus to save him. He received what Jesus did for Him.

Ac 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

What was the requirement for Him to be baptized? He has to believe. Baptism is for believer's only. Believer's are already Saved.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

If believing means that you know that you have eternal life, where is baptism mentioned here?

It is very clear that baptism is NOT for salvation but an act of obedience. It is an ordinaince just as communion is.

This post was edited by xfrodobagginsx on Mar 14 2012 03:42pm

TL;DR

There is no heaven and no god.

Positive assertion without proof positive.