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Dec 28 2025 03:31am
your entire worldview is arbitrary and unjustified, it is no better than "BOOO MURDER"

you first appealed to an almost deistic god, then stoicism, then to kant, but now you are appealing to arbitrary emotivism and a vague appeal to 'universal morality' while also admitting there is no ought. kant would not appeal to no 'ought' so your worldview is very obviously not well reasoned and changes on a whim.

your entire worldview is just subjective preference while contradictorily appealing a universal morality we can somehow apprehend without justification, the entire thing just collapses.


You’re all over the map here. Be specific, what contradiction do you think I’ve made? Name the two concepts that clash, preferably with quotations from my posts. If it exists I would love to eliminate it.
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Dec 28 2025 01:53pm
Those aren’t the values of Roman civilization, atleast not prior to Constantine.

But either way this doesn't at all get to the core of the problem between the pre-christian romans and the jews. It was the exact same problem the romans had with the early christians. Jews and Christians(which the romans considered a jewish cult) both had an exclusionary religion. The romans had no problem understanding the egyptians, because they saw the egyptian gods as differently-named versions of their own gods, and the egyptians agreed with this interpretation. The jews and christians were not happy to concede that their god was Jupiter by another name, but instead insisted that all of the roman gods were false.

The romans literally considered both jews and christians to be atheists for this reason, which seems bizarre now, but that’s how they felt and it makes sense from their perspective. They believed in all of the gods, including their deified emperors. A split from this understanding of divinity was considered not only blasphemous, but moronic. They literally did not have the concept of “false gods” and dealt viciously with everyone who brought the charge upon them.

For example, Rome considered the punic god Baal to be just another name for their god Saturn, who was also the Greek titan Cronus. Seems a strange belief system now but it certainly allowed them to absorb(most) other cultures more easily.


They absolutely were the values, albeit a subset of them - of Greco-Roman culture, atleast by the 1st century BC. Christianity itself is a Hellenic (Greco-Roman, remember the Romans were Hellenophiles) religion, derived from these values and understanding and synthesized with the Israelite prophecy. Christianity would have never been integrated into the Empire without the foundations already being there. It took a couple centuries for the Roman public at large to understand it - the problems early on were a lack of communication and understanding - Christianity revealed a common truth that underpinned all gods, but for the public to actually digest and understand this was no easy task as it was a total reformation, a reordering without replacing, of their worldview.

It's important to understand that all 'gods' were simply (or maybe not so simply) representations of immaterial transcendent truths. These ranged from the crudest form, which was nature worship as seen in the Druidic Celts and the crude fertility gods worshipped by the Phoenicians (remember their worldview was largely produce-consume), to the most refined form being the Greco-Roman gods such as Apollo, Jupiter, Saturn, Venus etc. So it of course made sense that they recognized this in competing civilizations.

The concept of atheism didn't exist at this time. You are correct that they viewed Judaism and initially Christianity as exclusive religions, which they didn't like, until the worldview was actually understood centuries later.

This post was edited by El1te on Dec 28 2025 02:05pm
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Dec 28 2025 01:57pm
I believe, as Kant, that morality is universal and that it can be discovered through higher reasoning, of which we are capable.


Kant was a Christian, which obviously professes a universal morality which can be discovered. His view is simply the Christian view, the truth that Jesus is Lord and only through a personal relationship with Him can we arrive at the Father is a truth revealed by contemplation (reasoning) and revelation/epiphany.

Every person who isn't an imbecile believes in a universal morality. The question then becomes, which? Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are all competing understandings of universal morality. Jews believe it is moral to treat people outside their tribe as cattle and that they should be worshipped by the goyim, Muslims believe it is moral to treat women as cattle, etc. All claim universal morality.

This post was edited by El1te on Dec 28 2025 02:11pm
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Dec 28 2025 04:48pm
They absolutely were the values, albeit a subset of them - of Greco-Roman culture, atleast by the 1st century BC. Christianity itself is a Hellenic (Greco-Roman, remember the Romans were Hellenophiles) religion, derived from these values and understanding and synthesized with the Israelite prophecy. Christianity would have never been integrated into the Empire without the foundations already being there. It took a couple centuries for the Roman public at large to understand it - the problems early on were a lack of communication and understanding - Christianity revealed a common truth that underpinned all gods, but for the public to actually digest and understand this was no easy task as it was a total reformation, a reordering without replacing, of their worldview.

It's important to understand that all 'gods' were simply (or maybe not so simply) representations of immaterial transcendent truths. These ranged from the crudest form, which was nature worship as seen in the Druidic Celts and the crude fertility gods worshipped by the Phoenicians (remember their worldview was largely produce-consume), to the most refined form being the Greco-Roman gods such as Apollo, Jupiter, Saturn, Venus etc. So it of course made sense that they recognized this in competing civilizations.

The concept of atheism didn't exist at this time. You are correct that they viewed Judaism and initially Christianity as exclusive religions, which they didn't like, until the worldview was actually understood centuries later.


Lol the concept of atheism certainly existed, the word just didn’t. Socrates was charged with and put to death for not believing in the gods several hundred years before the time we are discussing. But as I already explained, the concept was slightly different from a polytheistic perspective.

I meant that the jewish and christian religions were exclusionary in that they precluded the existence of all other gods. This is still how both religions work, nothing was explained away. Christianity and Judaism were both totally incompatible with the Roman mode of thought. It took hundreds of years, thousands of crucified christians and a massively declining empire to bridge the gap.

Kant was a Christian, which obviously professes a universal morality which can be discovered. His view is simply the Christian view, the truth that Jesus is Lord and only through a personal relationship with Him can we arrive at the Father is a truth revealed by contemplation (reasoning) and revelation/epiphany.

Every person who isn't an imbecile believes in a universal morality. The question then becomes, which? Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are all competing understandings of universal morality. Jews believe it is moral to treat people outside their tribe as cattle and that they should be worshipped by the goyim, Muslims believe it is moral to treat women as cattle, etc. All claim universal morality.


That’s not right at all. Kant did not believe that revelation/epiphany was needed to uncover the universal morality. He said pure logic is the only thing you need to do it, no knowledge of Christ required. He also believed that prayer and miracles are the result of ignorant superstition, so whether or not he was a Christian, he most certainly was not the sort of Christian you just painted him as.

Jews don’t believe they should be worshipped… the Noahide laws ban this explicitly.
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Dec 28 2025 05:32pm
You’re all over the map here. Be specific, what contradiction do you think I’ve made? Name the two concepts that clash, preferably with quotations from my posts. If it exists I would love to eliminate it.


what? how am I all over the place? I was very precise in laying out the incoherency in your worldview


your entire worldview has no oughts, it is subjective preference yet you appeal to objective morality at the same time. this is the central contradiction I pointed out.

I tried to ask your epistemic justification for objective morality and how it's simply not subjective preference if I can reason into X position and you can reason into Y position, what's the normative authority to arbitrate the objectivity or the universal "ought" and you come back saying there is no ought.

if there is no 'ought,' then morality isn't a 'universal force' like gravity, it’s just a personal preference. If I 'want' to murder and you 'want' to be kind, and there is no 'ought' to arbitrate between us, then your 'universal morality' is a meaningless concept. you are appealing to an objective standard while grounding it in a subjective feeling. That is the incoherency
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Dec 28 2025 05:37pm
gonna pass on cutting up my ding dong and living pork free
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Dec 28 2025 05:56pm
what? how am I all over the place? I was very precise in laying out the incoherency in your worldview


your entire worldview has no oughts, it is subjective preference yet you appeal to objective morality at the same time. this is the central contradiction I pointed out.

I tried to ask your epistemic justification for objective morality and how it's simply not subjective preference if I can reason into X position and you can reason into Y position, what's the normative authority to arbitrate the objectivity or the universal "ought" and you come back saying there is no ought.

if there is no 'ought,' then morality isn't a 'universal force' like gravity, it’s just a personal preference. If I 'want' to murder and you 'want' to be kind, and there is no 'ought' to arbitrate between us, then your 'universal morality' is a meaningless concept. you are appealing to an objective standard while grounding it in a subjective feeling. That is the incoherency


I see your problem. You think that I believe good necessarily begets positive contribution and bad necessarily begets negative contribution. I do not believe that. I don’t think the consequences of our actions can be predicted, especially not on the timeline of the greater project.

Ought does not concern me, because it implies I can see the consequences of your actions. I can’t. Maybe by being a shitty person, you create a new Dostoevsky—a person who does not want to be like you. The best and worst things you can do may be in seemingly casual interchanges.

The good is. It exists only in the present. I want to act well not because I think this is necessarily my greatest path to positive contribution. I simply don’t know, so I aim to do the best thing in the present moment. This is the limit of my control.

It is not my aim to arbitrate between you and I, or to reconcile our beliefs. You asked me what I believe. I do not care what you believe.
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Dec 28 2025 06:08pm
This post is a violation of the site rules and appropriate action was taken.

gonna pass on cutting up my ding dong and living pork free


You could start off with a pair of tits and maybe some light hormone therapy and work your way up to turning your cock inside out. I bet you’d like it.

I’ll pm you some of our subversive pamphlets. Don’t worry, there are pictures and very few words. We know what you guys like. In fact, we made you like those things.
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Dec 28 2025 06:14pm
I see your problem. You think that I believe good necessarily begets positive contribution and bad necessarily begets negative contribution. I do not believe that. I don’t think the consequences of our actions can be predicted, especially not on the timeline of the greater project.

Ought does not concern me, because it implies I can see the consequences of your actions. I can’t. Maybe by being a shitty person, you create a new Dostoevsky—a person who does not want to be like you. The best and worst things you can do may be in seemingly casual interchanges.

The good is. It exists only in the present. I want to act well not because I think this is necessarily my greatest path to positive contribution. I simply don’t know, so I aim to do the best thing in the present moment. This is the limit of my control.

It is not my aim to arbitrate between you and I, or to reconcile our beliefs. You asked me what I believe. I do not care what you believe.


saying 'ought doesn't concern me' is an admittance that your universal morality is no longer a universal, but a personal preference.

you have now abandoned universal morality and have adopted some form of ethical nihilism.

"I want to act well not because I think this is necessarily my greatest path to positive contribution. I simply don’t know, so I aim to do the best thing in the present moment. "

a universal that does not arbitrate between two people is no longer a universal but a psychological report, saying you want to act "well" has the same value as me saying I wanna eat some pizza right now. There is no metaphysical identity of what "well" or "best thing" is, your entire worldview collapses on meta-ethics.


"good necessarily begets positive contribution" my issue is that you have not justified what 'positive contribution' is in your worldview, it is completely arbitrary. like earlier you said "lean onto the moral structures that have yielded the greatest results" presupposes what "greatest results" ought be, but while removing oughts your entire worldview collapses into incoherence.
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Dec 28 2025 06:15pm
You could start off with a pair of tits and maybe some light hormone therapy and work your way up to turning your cock inside out. I bet you’d like it.

I’ll pm you some of our subversive pamphlets. Don’t worry, there are pictures and very few words. We know what you guys like. In fact, we made you like those things.


damn for real? bet

Gimmie the Mar-a-lago face so famously adopted by trump's personal circle while we're there
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