Quote (Goomshill @ Sep 6 2024 04:00pm)

If the kid is charged as a juvenile, we're saying he's not fully responsible for his own actions. Below the age of adulthood, we regard children as some degree of responsibility of their guardians, their parents, their schoolteachers, etc. Clearly entirely their responsibility for toddlers, and at some point they can be independent and willful enough to be considered as adults in the eyes of the law. It would be coherent to say a child is not fully responsible for his actions, and therefore parents bear some responsibility. Or that an adult is fully responsible for his actions, and his parents aren't. Tim Kaine's son was arrested at a riot against Trump's victory where he attacked police at the capitol and needed to be put in a headlock to get him under control. Should Tim Kaine have been arrested too? Linwood Kaine was 24 years old. And like I said, Tim Walz was personally involved in a case over just this distinction with Myon Burrell, who at 16 murdered an 11 year old girl and was later set free with his sentence commuted by Tim Walz on the basis that a 16 year old wasn't old enough to be fully responsible for his actions (even if Myon Burrell Jr was a year old when his father was 16)

There are arguments I agree with and arguments I disagree with, but then there are incoherent arguments trying to have it both ways, standing on mutually exclusive ground.

Quote (IceMage @ Sep 6 2024 06:16pm)

But you list reasons in your post as to how the prosecution's legal case isn't based on the intent or negligence of the kid's dad. So what's the affirmative argument for why their case would be legally coherent if the kid was charged as a minor?

You seem to be arguing against the dad's responsibility regardless of whether or not the kid is charged as an adult, but you say they would have a legally coherent case, and I'm not seeing how. That factor doesn't seem to be significantly relevant.

Quote (Plaguefear @ Sep 6 2024 04:38pm)

Public records show that Gray's mother, Marcee Gray, has a criminal record dating back to 2007 and spent time in jail as recently as this past April and was banned from contacting father Colin without a third party intermediary.
Marcee, 43, has a record across four Georgia counties and includes drug use, domestic violence and property damage, as well as civil claims of fraud.

Should we arrest the mom too?

Quote (Goomshill @ Sep 7 2024 09:49am)

Maybe for the murder charges, which I imagine would stay incoherent in any theory since you aren't going to arrive at intent however you spin it. Guy just buying a gun for personal use, with no reasonable expectation it could be used in a crime, doesn't make the jump to "felony cruelty to children" because of some possible future scenario. But he's also charged with involuntary manslaughter and that would be a coherent argument from negligence, and those kinds of prosecutions happen all the time, ex;
https://www.startribune.com/minnesota-dad-gets-6-months-max-for-death-of-toddler-shot-by-4-year-old-brother-with-unsecured-gun/601139752
In that case it was manslaughter plead down to child endangerment, but its certainly not murder.

I'd say this is a product of just how contrived that murder charge is. You have to spin it around some murder-for-hire logic to somehow say that buying a gun someone else could use in a crime makes you culpable. So you have to foresee the future crime or it to be an unavoidable consequence, you need to be a causal factor in it, your gun buying concurrent. How can you frame the child/parent relationship in a way that the future actions of a child were the responsibility of the parent? If that child is taking independent action as an adult, the father can't be an accomplice. Instead the dad has to be responsible enough for the child's actions that his future crime is a product of the dad's parenting. But if you're saying the dad is just committing involuntary manslaughter because of negligently allowing access to a firearm, then that presupposes the child is not fully responsible for his actions because taking someone's gun without their knowledge or intent and using it in a crime- makes the gun owner a victim, not an accomplice.

its square peg round hole stuff. These prosecutors decided to try the child as an adult and charge the parents before the shooting ever happened, liberal society was just waiting for the opportunity. They didn't even put on the pretense of examining the kid's mental state before declaring him an adult, so don't expect the charges to make sense

Quote (Plaguefear @ Sep 6 2024 07:14pm)

Her bought a 14 year old asshole who had already been accused of plotting a school shooting a semi automatic rifle..

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Again you're talking about judging someone on suspicion. Someone who at that point had done nothing wrong, against whom there was no provable evidence of a threat. Writing off this kid is exactly what you're talking about, and the fact nobody wrote him off is a credit to society and yet here we are retroactively judging people for trying to give him a chance in life instead of treating him like he's radioactive. That he's glowing with "warning signs". You can't judge the parents, or the school or FBI or sheriff for not isolating this child and treating him as a threat unless you're saying that he should have been isolated and treated as a threat.

The whole debate is about wanting to have it both ways when they are mutually exclusive. We can't try to give every kid a fair shake and then retroactively judge guilty everyone who didn't persecute him. We can't hold a kid as an adult responsible for his own actions and then charge everyone around him for being his guardian.

What happens in a world where paranoid adults, disregarding the fact that mass school shootings are rarer than unicorns, obsess over cases like this and treat every problem child as a suspected serial killer in training? If little Johnny swears at someone in a CoD lobby, do we cart him off in the Hannibal Lector trolley to 'alternative school' where an armed guard watches his every move?

....


There are what, half a million children around the US who don't get put under such scrutiny despite 'warning signs' and it doesn't get anyone killed.
As per early pages, if we really cared about actual impacts, regulating access to motor vehicles would be 1000x more important because 1000x as many people are killed by reckless underage drivers with their parent's cars than their parents guns.

The rate of US mass school shootings like these are so low that its on the same magnitude of children killed by lightning and by sharks. Paranoid media driven parents have made 'active shooter drills' into a thing even though fires are far deadlier. In the past 5 years there's been 4 such shootings, at Oxford MI, Uvalde TX, Nashville TN and now Winder GA. With 35 murder victims. Compared to 20,000 people dying of fires in the US in that same span.


There are about 50 million children enrolled in US k-12 schools. A significant percentage of them have behavioral problems, many serious, many with more concrete and evinced threats or antisocial traits than the gay/queer/trans/whatever kid in this incident. You need a serious mental block to not realize how damaging it is to a huge number of children to treat them as suspects, as presumed guilty, as potential terrorists, and start quarantining them and building walls around them- on mere suspicions. How many hundreds of thousands of kids need to be pilloried and have their lives ruined by living under a cloud of suspicion? And to state the obvious next logical observation: The more you treat children like criminals, the more they become criminals. That "school to prison pipeline" has the right idea if wrong implementation. If little Johnny thinks his life is over because paranoid adults think he's a school shooter, maybe they're just making a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I've said it for decades, we love to treat innocent people like criminals and let the actual criminals go free. Nobody bats an eye when inner city kids run with the bloods and sell fentanyl at george floyd square while strapped, they just need the benefit of our understanding and tolerance. But the queer kid with no proven threats? Its not enough to persecute him, we need to lock up anyone who failed to do so.

Quote (gnarjay @ Sep 6 2024 07:50pm)

what a weird instance to frame Russia as the bad guy, how pathetic

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Conflicting evidence on the post’s origin left investigators unable to arrest anyone, the report said. Jackson County Sheriff Janis Mangum said she reviewed the report from May 2023 and found nothing that would have justified bringing charges at the time.
The FBI's tip pointed to a Discord account associated with an email address linked to Colt Gray, the report said. But the boy said 'he would never say such a thing, even in a joking manner,' according to the investigator's report.
....
Investigators wrote that no arrests were made because of 'inconsistent information' on the Discord account, which had profile information in Russian and a digital evidence trail indicating it had been accessed in different Georgia cities as well as Buffalo, New York.
Authorities closed the case being unable to substantiate that either Gray was connected to the Discord account, and did not find grounds to seek the needed court order to confiscate the family's guns.
....
Colin reportedly assured officers that he would be 'mad as hell' if he learned the allegations about his son making threats were true, and that 'all the guns [would] go away.'

Quote (Goomshill @ Sep 6 2024 05:58pm)

Maybe you're unfamiliar with the facts rolling in but that's what happened;



The sheriff, FBI, school and father all so no sign of imminent threat to justify action. They made a point of saying they would have acted, if they had.
So here we are a year later judging him on hindsight, for what he did not predict without the evidence needed to see it coming.

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According to reports from the sheriff's office released Thursday, the threats were made using an account on the online chatting app Discord. The profile name for the account was written in Russian, which was translated to the last name of the shooter in the deadly 2012 attack at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, according to the sheriff's office.

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"These charges stem from Mr. Gray knowingly allowing his son, Colt, to possess a weapon," GBI Director Chris Hosey said in a news conference Thursday night.

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His father allegedly bought the semi-automatic weapon for his son as a Christmas present.

Quote (gnarjay @ Sep 6 2024 08:07pm)

I guess this is just a coincidence too , huh? surely he couldnt use google translate to correctly use Russian written language
take the wool away from your eyes my son, you are willingly blinding yourself for what?