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Feb 2 2020 09:15pm
ITT:

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Feb 2 2020 10:25pm
Quote (Goomshill @ 2 Feb 2020 20:15)
ITT:

https://files.catbox.moe/0gfpfg.mp4


I mean, a core of Dershowitz's argument was that the President was allowed to abuse their power.

That's fine, and it may not reach a high crime or misdemeanor, but we are seeing an even further expansion of executive power in real time.

And whether the Senate wanted to ultimate acquit or not, it would have at least been good optics for a separate branch of government to at least look like they wanted to check and balance the executive branch rather than go through the motions.
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Feb 2 2020 10:45pm
Quote (ThatAlex @ Feb 2 2020 10:25pm)
I mean, a core of Dershowitz's argument was that the President was allowed to abuse their power.

That's fine, and it may not reach a high crime or misdemeanor, but we are seeing an even further expansion of executive power in real time.

And whether the Senate wanted to ultimate acquit or not, it would have at least been good optics for a separate branch of government to at least look like they wanted to check and balance the executive branch rather than go through the motions.


Historically, the expansion of executive power has come from the executive claiming they have a power through a novel theory and then exercising it unilaterally, leaving it up to congress to challenge it by legislation and/or in the courts.
I don't think it really sets a precedent for expanding executive powers when you invert that and have congress attempting to curtail an executive based on a novel theory and then failing to do so.
If the question was, can an executive hold up foreign aid at their discretion despite having no legal basis to do in legislation- then despite everything the GAO has said to the contrary, that precedent was set ages ago and every president has routinely ignored that limitation. That power of the executive wasn't expanded by Trump. If the question is whether a president can "abuse their power" unchecked, than that's not really a precedent at all because its such an intentionally vague term. And even on any specific understanding of the term, you still have the completely unresolved question of the *normal* two channels for the other two branches to challenge a president's powers: By legislation and/or in the courts. The democrats didn't sue Trump to force the foreign aid to go through. They didn't pass new (and redundant) legislation saying he can't withhold the aid. Instead they opted for impeachment without a high crime or misdemeanor.

So I don't think it can really constitute an expansion of executive power to say the president can't be impeached for doing something that the constitution really doesn't let him get impeached for, without trying to challenge whether he can be stopped from doing it by passing a law or an order from the judiciary. The entire history of expansion of executive powers in the US has come from the success, failure or declination of those recourses, never from impeachment or its failure. At least unlike Nixon, Clinton or Trump, the issue of Andrew Johnson's impeachment actually was an allegation of executive overreach in policy alone. And even in that case, it boiled down to the supreme court declaring unconstitutional years later the acts they failed to impeach Johnson for- a check on the executive by the judiciary.

The checks and balances remain unchanged. The only precedent is that of impeachment normalized as a partisan farce to slap at a president of the opposite party as an empty threat purely for theatrics and optics.
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Feb 2 2020 10:58pm
Quote (Goomshill @ 2 Feb 2020 21:45)
Historically, the expansion of executive power has come from the executive claiming they have a power through a novel theory and then exercising it unilaterally, leaving it up to congress to challenge it by legislation and/or in the courts.
I don't think it really sets a precedent for expanding executive powers when you invert that and have congress attempting to curtail an executive based on a novel theory and then failing to do so.
If the question was, can an executive hold up foreign aid at their discretion despite having no legal basis to do in legislation- then despite everything the GAO has said to the contrary, that precedent was set ages ago and every president has routinely ignored that limitation. That power of the executive wasn't expanded by Trump. If the question is whether a president can "abuse their power" unchecked, than that's not really a precedent at all because its such an intentionally vague term. And even on any specific understanding of the term, you still have the completely unresolved question of the *normal* two channels for the other two branches to challenge a president's powers: By legislation and/or in the courts. The democrats didn't sue Trump to force the foreign aid to go through. They didn't pass new (and redundant) legislation saying he can't withhold the aid. Instead they opted for impeachment without a high crime or misdemeanor.

So I don't think it can really constitute an expansion of executive power to say the president can't be impeached for doing something that the constitution really doesn't let him get impeached for, without trying to challenge whether he can be stopped from doing it by passing a law or an order from the judiciary. The entire history of expansion of executive powers in the US has come from the success, failure or declination of those recourses, never from impeachment or its failure. At least unlike Nixon, Clinton or Trump, the issue of Andrew Johnson's impeachment actually was an allegation of executive overreach in policy alone. And even in that case, it boiled down to the supreme court declaring unconstitutional years later the acts they failed to impeach Johnson for- a check on the executive by the judiciary.

The checks and balances remain unchanged. The only precedent is that of impeachment normalized as a partisan farce to slap at a president of the opposite party as an empty threat purely for theatrics and optics.


Yep, unitary executive theory.

Until we finally hold the chief executive accountable for abuses of power or overreaches, they will just continue to do it. The problem is, neither team wants to do it when their party is in office.

I'll gladly let my party take an L by throwing out a Democratic president for an abuse of power to make an example out of them for future presidents. It would be good for the country.

Bill Clinton committed perjury and obstruction of justice. His ass should have been gone.

This post was edited by ThatAlex on Feb 2 2020 10:59pm
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Feb 2 2020 11:09pm
Quote (ThatAlex @ Feb 2 2020 10:58pm)
Yep, unitary executive theory.

Until we finally hold the chief executive accountable for abuses of power or overreaches, they will just continue to do it. The problem is, neither team wants to do it when their party is in office.

I'll gladly let my party take an L by throwing out a Democratic president for an abuse of power to make an example out of them for future presidents. It would be good for the country.

Bill Clinton committed perjury and obstruction of justice. His ass should have been gone.


I don't know how much more direct and abundantly clear the founding fathers could have been about their desire to have a unitary executive rather than a prime minister serving at the pleasure of a parliament. The constitution and the founding fathers were pretty explicit about the desire to harness the single-minded and swift decision making of a single leader with the deliberative process and representation of a senate and arbitration by a judiciary. If congress were able to micromanage how the president uses his powers, the executive branch would be redundant. Why have it at all? Might as well put a crown on Trump's head and make him a powerless ceremonial monarch like Elizabeth.
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Feb 2 2020 11:12pm
Quote (Goomshill @ Feb 2 2020 11:45pm)
The checks and balances remain unchanged. The only precedent is that of impeachment normalized as a partisan farce to slap at a president of the opposite party as an empty threat purely for theatrics and optics.



THIS.

The tug of war between the executive, legislative and judicial branches, is an ongoing, healthy process. It has the added benefit of protecting the laws of this country. It's very hard to change the laws... as it should be.



...it's as the framers intended.

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Feb 2 2020 11:27pm
Quote (Ghot @ Feb 2 2020 09:12pm)
THIS.

The tug of war between the executive, legislative and judicial branches, is an ongoing, healthy process. It has the added benefit of protecting the laws of this country. It's very hard to change the laws... as it should be.



...it's as the framers intended.


um... LOL so lost.. I shouldn't even comment, the whites of your eyes are turning orange.
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Feb 2 2020 11:34pm
Quote (theCrossbones @ Feb 3 2020 12:27am)
um... LOL so lost.. I shouldn't even comment, the whites of your eyes are turning orange.




Ah... the rapier like wit of a one armed D’Artagnan. :/
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Feb 3 2020 12:27am
This is the person that the republicans are defending. lol.



This post was edited by Phaggot on Feb 3 2020 01:47am
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Feb 3 2020 05:46am
nvm

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Feb 3 2020 06:01am
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