Quote (IceMage @ 31 Jan 2021 22:43)

This post made me lol.

This is a Goomshill-like recreating of reality to override the inconvenient fact that most Republican voters are simply part of a personality cult around Trump. There's no greater struggle between the good forces of right-wing populism and the bad forces of neocons... it's simply a question of whether someone supports Trump, regardless of what he does.

Liz Cheney won her primary and general election contests easily in 2020. She would've exerted way more influence in the party had she not developed a conscience for a moment. But it's hard not to look at you and Bogie refusing to accept reality as part of the story of the radicalization of the right these past years. It's not just the QAnon folks... it's pretty much all of you.

Quote (IceMage @ 31 Jan 2021 23:09)

Yes... Trump voters have a sophisticated calculation they do in their heads on these votes. It's not as simple as "Cheney supported the vast majority of his policy but then voted for impeachment, thus she's forever soiled"... it's much more complex than that.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jan 31 2021 04:10pm)

Which side is representing good and evil, a promising path or a dead end, is a subjective call. My opinion on this question is well-known, but I wont claim that my personal opinion is a fact or the truth. What indeed is undeniable, however, is that this intraparty struggle for power is happening.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jan 31 2021 05:10pm)

Which side is representing good and evil, a promising path or a dead end, is a subjective call. My opinion on this question is well-known, but I wont claim that my personal opinion is a fact or the truth. What indeed is undeniable, however, is that this intraparty struggle for power is happening.

Like I explained before, I believe that Cheney was never personally agreeing with Trump's direction. Imho, she had been biting her tongue all the time and always waited for the day when the party would return to what it was during the reign of Dubya and her father. The way I see it, the storming of the Capitol made her realize that she would not want to be part of a trumpified party going forward, that she would have no more career ambitions in this kind of GOP. She imho voted her conscience on impeachment not out of a sense of duty or moral obligation, she did it because the attack changed her personal political calculus.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jan 31 2021 05:18pm)

There is a fundamental difference between "voted for the vast majority of his policy" and "supports his policy and direction". :rolleyes:

Also, note how other Republicans who support impeachment have not drawn nearly the same kind of wrath from the base. Ben Sasse has disagreed with Trump a fair bit over the years on all sorts of policies and now supports impeachment, yet he isnt facing nearly the same kind of backlash although he, too, comes from a deep-red state. Why is that? Could it be because Sasse, for all his well-justified disagreements with Trump on the details of policy and conduct, stands for the same broader direction of conservatism while Cheney stands for a direction with which voters want nothing to do anymore?

Quote (IceMage @ 31 Jan 2021 23:29)

Yes... Liz Cheney got to #3 in leadership of the GOP because she doesn't understand the politics as well as some right-wing German dude on a gaming forum, even though every serious person on the right reads the situation the same as I do.
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Quote (IceMage @ Jan 31 2021 04:06pm)

I'm genuinely surprised how you and Black are refusing to see the reality of the situation.

Cheney voted to impeach Trump because he lied for 2 months about the election being stolen, worked to steal the election himself, called for his supporters to protest Congress accepting the results on Jan. 6th, and spoke to the mob before they invaded the Capitol.

That's why she is facing political backlash. Not because she supported big business tax cuts that Trump signed. Not because she wasn't tough enough on immigration or trade policy. Not because she's more interventionist than Trump. She faced backlash not because she voted against some Trumpist right-wing populist policy, but because she voted to hold him accountable for his post-election actions.

I'm honestly not sure if you guys are being willfully obtuse or you genuinely can't understand what's happening here. This has nothing to do with policy... it has everything to do with disloyalty to the cult leader. Which, if you care about actual policy, seems a weird thing to be defending.

Quote (IceMage @ 31 Jan 2021 23:29)

Do you think the Nebraskan GOP should censure Sasse?

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jan 31 2021 05:37pm)

Where exactly did I claim that Cheney doesnt understand politics or played her cards badly? Getting to #3 in leadership this quickly is an impressive feat, I dont deny that. I'm not arguing against what she was doing, I disagree with you on what her motivations were/are. You idolize her as a brave role model for voting her conscience on impeachment and realizing her late calling as a #resistance warrior. I consider her a swampy career politician who tried to sit out the Trump years, but then realized that there would be no place for someone like her in a party which remains trumpified even after his presidency.

Quote (bogie160 @ Jan 31 2021 05:38pm)

Liz Cheney voted to impeach the (now former) president. A majority of her constituents do not want to impeach the president. A majority of Republicans don't want to impeach the president. Given the current polarity, I don't want to impeach the president.

If this is Liz Cheney's conscience, I understand. That is her right. But that may end up making her an unsuitable representative for her constituents. Personally, I'm torn, because dissident voices are important.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jan 31 2021 05:41pm)

No, and I dont think that the WY GOP should censure Cheney either. But I'm not surprised or bothered in the slightest when this happens.

Keep in mind that this whole discussion started when you complained about Cheney getting censured. To which I replied that this is a silly notion and that her, or Sasse or other officials from deep red turf, should not be surprised when they get censured after voting against the will of their pro-Trump constituents at home.

Quote (IceMage @ Jan 31 2021 05:09pm)

Yes... Trump voters have a sophisticated calculation they do in their heads on these votes. It's not as simple as "Cheney supported the vast majority of his policy but then voted for impeachment, thus she's forever soiled"... it's much more complex than that.