They are free to vote against the will of their voters. They just have to deal with the consequences of flouting the will of the people they are supposed to represent. Liz Cheney is morally and legally entitled to vote for impeachment. She is not entitled to complain about being censured or otherwise facing the wrath of her voter base at home. Keep in mind that this was where this discussion started: you were complaining about representatives facing the consequences of their actions.



Regarding the broader point: like I explained in my previous post, we have to take the historical context into account. For decades, GOP officials were more concerned with reining in the impulses of their voters than with actually fighting for their voters' priorities... because these priorities of the base were not actually the priorities of the party operatives. It was the GOP leadership which first didnt respect its constituents, so they now arent in a position to complain about their voters no longer respecting them or following their leadership.

Simply put, a political leadership which is aligned with its voters on ideology and policy, which fights hard for the people they represent and have something to show for it, will be in a position to occasionally break with its base and get a critical mass to rethink their position when they do. This obviously doesnt work when the leadership is breaking with its base all the fucking time. A leadership which has constantly flouted and disdained its base, pursued its own agenda and lost every single culture wars battle for three decades running, usually without even putting up a fight, will inevitably have lost its grip and sway. The GOP leadership is no longer in a position to steer its base because they have disrespected and failed them far too often.

You're invested in this romantic vision of a symbiotic relationship between the party apparatus and its base, where both sides are influencing each other in a productive fashion. This ship has sailed a long time ago, long before Trump even entered the political stage. By contrast, Trump finding such a dedicated base is the result, not the cause, of this alienation between RNC and base.

This discussion is ridiculous because to you, facts aren't supposed to matter. I think you acknowledge that Trump lied to the voters about the election being stolen for 2 months. He tried to steal the election himself. He called for people to come to DC Jan 6th, and got them riled up. He created the circumstances that led to the insurrection.

Now, those voters who believed all his lies, are upset a few Republicans want to hold him accountable. And to you, that's entirely appropriate, because facts don't actually matter. The only thing that matters is the will of the voters(which was informed by the president lying to them(what a man of the people)).

Also, the voters aren't the ones doing the censuring. It's Trumpified state GOP parties. They have to vice signal to the radicalized base about how outraged they are that a Republican had the temerity to hold Trump accountable.

You constantly speak about this stuff as if the representatives are going against populist policy and the voters are enacting consequences. It's never about policy. It's always about loyalty to Trump. It's about the cult, not any policy agenda. Liz Cheney just got reelected by a large margin because she was loyal to Trump, not because she changed her policy. She's facing consequences now because she broke loyalty to Trump, while maintaining the same policy viewpoints.

This post was edited by IceMage on Jan 31 2021 09:44am

This is the fundamental disagreement in our assessment of Trumpism that we always keep coming back to: I do not think that Trumpism is a cult of personality in the strict sense, that the rabid base is obsessed with loyalty to Trump because they love Trump, the obese, orange-skinned person with the vocabulary of a grade schooler, so much. In my humble opinion, Trump is a symbol for a change of focus and tonality in conservative politics, one that the base had been craving for a long time. The demand had been there for years, but only recently has there been the corresponding supply. This also fits into the empirical observation that the GOP did really well in House and Senate races as well as state legislatures in the November general election.

These fights that we're seeing right now in the GOP about loyalty to Trump IMHO are not actually about Trump the person, they are a proxy fight over the future direction of the party. It is unfortunate that this proxy fights involve such glaring contradictions, like the ones you mention. Post-election, Trump really fucked things up for himself, the GOP and the country. He has outlived his usefulness and become a liability, and the country is better off with him gone. Fights over impeachment or censuring nonetheless take place because they determine whether the party will go back to the politics of the Bush-McCain-Romney era, or if it tries to forge a path forward in the image of what Trump did, just without his gigantic personal flaws and deficiencies.





I consider "Trumpism without Trump", in the sense of a populist direction led by more sane and savvy politicians than Trump, to be the more promising path forward. You, by contrast, think that Trumpism always was fundamentally about Trump and his unique personality, and that something like "Trumpism without Trump" would therefore be impossible (and silly). I want a continuation of the policies of the past 4 years, just carried out with more competence, self-restraint and strategical thinking; you seem to want to go back to Romneyesque politics. I'm not saying that I am right and you are wrong btw, just pointing out where my perspective is coming from and where I see the core of our disagreement that keeps popping up.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jan 31 2021 10:57am

I think there are a few people that think like you which is people are signed up for trump because of his political agenda.
you may be part of the smallest minority.

Evangelical Trumpers? That cannot be a logical/emotional connection, but somehow it is.

Qanon Trumpers? Jere/Dark? How many of those in the US i bet 20 mill? Jew laser GOP Senate? Come on man?

Anti POC Trumpers? LOTS of them. BUILD THE WALL

Sensible trumpers who just want tax reform and don't want healthcare to be part of their taxes-- smallest group of voters out there. And they would be smart enough to grab on to another candidate with a similar agenda.. Not even the GOP thinks this is valid avenue, and is jumping ship already.
My larger point.
ITS A FUCKING CULT

They're a small group because trumps actual governing was 95% in line with normal GOP politics. Why would they go with Trump for politics when he represents nearly no departure from normal politics?

I don't think they care about policy per se. Rather, it's more of a rebuke of elitism, liberalism, etc. The Trump administration is riddled with contradictions when it comes to traditional conservatism AND populism. It's why populist policy wonks heavily criticized Trump. At the end of the day, I think I think the Republican party is less about reform and more about obstruction. At a fundamental level, conservatism is rooted in obstructionism because they are supposed to filter the terrible ideas from progressive and reform parties.

Anyway, you say that Trump is a symbol of right wing grievances but how is that any different than a cult? I thought that Trump was going away too but the fact that GOP leadership is still courting him is concerning. Maybe he'll go away after the impeachment trial?

he will go away if he feels like it. he certainly commands attention and authority from his detractors and critics even after he’s left the WH, much more than the current occupant even.

Voters have other tools at their disposal. They are unhappy with the direction Liz Cheney took. If she doesn't want to represent their interests, she is free to move somewhere else, rebuild a power base, and run again.

Republicans are unhappy with the direction of their party. The sooner Republican congressman understand their grievances and work towards solving them, the better the situation will be. That is how "serious" Republicans win back the party. You are not winning over Trump's base with "let's give tax cuts to big business and call it a wash".

I don't think that part is true.. That's exactly what he did and every food stamp, farm subsidy idiot's though he was looking out for "them"
trump base knows NOTHING about what he really does, they just believe he is protecting them so they are all in..

In my view, right-wing politics are about a preservation or restoration of a certain status quo, about protecting and fostering our wealth, safety and way of life. Because of the left's long march through the institutions and its resulting dominance over all cultural institutions (media, press, culture, academia), it has been the left which has enjoyed the strategic initiative for at least the past 25 years and been "on the offense" almost uninterrupted. This has created the false perception that conservatism is only about obstruction, or that it has become outright reactionary just because it seeks to roll back the worst excesses of the left.


The fever pitch reached a boiling point on January 6, and it will take time for it to go down. In the long run, however, Trump has lost all of his platforms. He is banned on social media, he no longer holds public office, and all efforts at establishing a new platform, be it a relaunched parler or TrumpTV, have failed so far. He has left office in disgrace, a majority in both the House and the Senate will vote against him, and he will only barely escape impeachment because of the 2/3rds hurdle. Moderate or untrumpy conservatives want nothing to do with him anymore. The party establishment around McConnell, as well as the donor class, will try everything they can to stop him dead in his tracks should he seek the nomination again in 2024. He will be embroiled in all sorts of legal battles and financial troubles. And last but not least, he's too old, his energy and sharpness have clearly been slipping.

He will just fade away more and more, but this process will take some time. He was the center of the political universe for 5 years, millions of voters projected all their hopes and dreams onto him. It is unrealistic to expect all of that to go away immediately. Yes, he will still have sway over a certain segment of the GOP electorate and be a power player during the primaries, but his own political career is over.