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Dec 12 2020 05:01pm
Quote (Bazi @ 12 Dec 2020 14:40)
Deaths always will lag cases, and new cases still have not reached peaked, but regardless you selected erroneous timeframes. Did I say anything about capacity in September or October? Quite clearly September and the majority of October were fairly calm times in terms of cases so why would you expect to see deaths there? It is easy to cherry pick timeframes, but any 3rd grader can tell you when the peak deaths (up to this point) are occurring. If you’re trying to, honestly, compare peaks you will compare the summer peak to the winter peak which last until January. Maybe you can come back and tell me in February how different the peaks were.


First, if 1 in 8 beds is "high" then your hospital is running at over 80% capacity pre-covid. I thought you said earlier that that wasn't a thing?

Now this bit is interesting. Covid is a coronavirus. Coronaviruses don't do well in "summer" comparatively speaking. And let's not kid ourselves, this coronavirus may be novel, but it shares most of it's features with any other coronavirus, which makes up 20% of the viruses that comprise the "common cold". Coronaviruses do very well in Winter. The idea of comparing the peak numbers of winter with the peak numbers of summer is laughable on it's face. I picked the timeframes I did because September-yesterday would actually be advantageous (if you want more deaths) to this winter, rather than last spring. Further, the case load last spring was far LOWER than the active cases today. So you've effectively gone into the fall/winter months with 2.6 million active cases outstanding to a current caseload of 6.5 million, with a peak in the April-July timeframe of 1.16 million cases, and the starting number in the hundreds. By all accounts, wouldn't one assume that if this airborne ebola, which I must assume it is based on how you're talking of it, has 6x the caseload, and started with a million active case load lead, there should be at least as many deaths? Same number of days, and the advantage seems to fall on today.

And I STILL want to know, given some 92% of current hospitalized Covid patients are 65+, exactly what's the purpose of imposing martial law on the working age (under 65) population? How is that going to help hospitals, nurses, doctors, or... Well, anyone?
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Dec 12 2020 05:34pm
Quote (InsaneBobb @ Dec 12 2020 05:01pm)
First, if 1 in 8 beds is "high" then your hospital is running at over 80% capacity pre-covid. I thought you said earlier that that wasn't a thing?

Now this bit is interesting. Covid is a coronavirus. Coronaviruses don't do well in "summer" comparatively speaking. And let's not kid ourselves, this coronavirus may be novel, but it shares most of it's features with any other coronavirus, which makes up 20% of the viruses that comprise the "common cold". Coronaviruses do very well in Winter. The idea of comparing the peak numbers of winter with the peak numbers of summer is laughable on it's face. I picked the timeframes I did because September-yesterday would actually be advantageous (if you want more deaths) to this winter, rather than last spring. Further, the case load last spring was far LOWER than the active cases today. So you've effectively gone into the fall/winter months with 2.6 million active cases outstanding to a current caseload of 6.5 million, with a peak in the April-July timeframe of 1.16 million cases, and the starting number in the hundreds. By all accounts, wouldn't one assume that if this airborne ebola, which I must assume it is based on how you're talking of it, has 6x the caseload, and started with a million active case load lead, there should be at least as many deaths? Same number of days, and the advantage seems to fall on today.

And I STILL want to know, given some 92% of current hospitalized Covid patients are 65+, exactly what's the purpose of imposing martial law on the working age (under 65) population? How is that going to help hospitals, nurses, doctors, or... Well, anyone?


No. I said i actually said hospitals are not operating at 80% capacity for 85% of the year, followed by ~ “during flu months hospitals are the only times hospitals are operating at that level”. Flu months = winter months. November is a winter month. November is a flu month.

2nd paragraph - first of all not airborne :). September-October coronavirus cases were low, ergo deaths were low. You are getting so caught up with semantics with the word “winter” winter is traditionally bad for respiratory viruses because when it gets cold, people stay indoors, and transmission increases. September wasn’t that cold iirc plus isn’t even winter if I have my seasons right. Hence why cases were low and you wouldn’t expect deaths to rise. As it gets colder especially with holidays and increased travel leading to increased transmission , respiratory viruses thrive. End of November cases started violently increasing. And will continue to do so for the WINTER months. This is why you are seeing and will continue to see a steep SLOPE re: deaths as the winter months drag on.

Rest of the stuff it looks like you dodged on like reality of hospital numbers I guess

3rd paragraph
There are multiple problems. I don’t recall advocating for martial law. Just recognizing the multiple parts to the problem. I’m not even saying I have all the solutions. You’re just the one that is denying some problems exist
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Dec 12 2020 05:54pm
Quote (Bazi @ 12 Dec 2020 15:34)
There are multiple problems. I don’t recall advocating for martial law. Just recognizing the multiple parts to the problem. I’m not even saying I have all the solutions. You’re just the one that is denying some problems exist


What problems am I denying? I've openly acknowledged that Covid is a severe problem among the elderly, especially those with one or more related health issues. I simultaneously acknowledged that it's really NOT a large problem among the young and healthy. I directly advocated for incentivization of self-quarantine for at-risk groups, with the remainder (working age population, school children, etc.) to go back to life as normal. The likely result, based on transmission rates as they appear to exist is that by summer, the majority of the young and healthy population will have caught the virus, gotten over it, and gained immunity. Last I checked, there are only 4 cases in the entire world where a person got it more than once, and all 4 cases the patients had no immune system. One from some rare syndrome, the other three from cancer treatments, IIRC. In the meantime, the elderly population can get vaccinated (if they so choose) as vaccines become available. But, once the virus runs through the healthy population, and the so-called "herd immunity" is reached, the most contagious threat is over, and the elderly can rejoin the general population with a feeling of relative safety.

Alternatively, what we've been doing is these selective lockdowns, without any real incentivized backing. So people are having harder times making ends meet, eating their fill, getting their exercise, etc. 95% of your time sat around without exercise or leaving the house depresses the immune system, and increases likelihood of infection spread when you do move about. So you end up seeing waves, and as the elderly inevitably come in contact with these waves of less healthy people at the stores or hospitals or wherever else, their likelihood of contracting the virus is simply at a non-stop high. I mean, right on the face of it I acknowledge the issue with the primary at risk group (the elderly). I fully acknowledge that hospitals will run into some issues, though I'd expect it to be much MUCH easier now that there's some experience and knowledge in treating the virus and it's effects, as compared to April. The problem I see is the impact it's having on the low/no-risk 6/7ths of the population.

And this is where I have major issue with Politicians claiming they're simply "following the science" by "consulting health experts". Forget that the WHO and CDC advised against more lockdowns. Let's just go with whichever doctors the Politicians are quoting this week. I mean, airborne viruses such as covid (and yes, it IS airborne, CDC confirmed in October) are damned near impossible to reign in, but the overall death rate among those under 65 is incredibly low, and among 0-19 non-existent. So all the damage we've done by quarantining the healthy population simply wasn't helpful. But the damage to educations, businesses, supply chains, mental health, and overall fitness has been horrific. So the question, as you happen to be a medical professional is, do we all just stay locked down until all the elderly can be vaccinated? Keep the entire nation/world at a standstill until next summer, or is it maybe better to get things moving again, and use the increased tax incomes from a revitalized economy to incentivize the at-risk group (elderly, comorbidity, etc.) to continue a self-imposed quarantine?
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Dec 12 2020 06:32pm
Quote (InsaneBobb @ Dec 12 2020 05:54pm)
What problems am I denying? I've openly acknowledged that Covid is a severe problem among the elderly, especially those with one or more related health issues. I simultaneously acknowledged that it's really NOT a large problem among the young and healthy. I directly advocated for incentivization of self-quarantine for at-risk groups, with the remainder (working age population, school children, etc.) to go back to life as normal. The likely result, based on transmission rates as they appear to exist is that by summer, the majority of the young and healthy population will have caught the virus, gotten over it, and gained immunity. Last I checked, there are only 4 cases in the entire world where a person got it more than once, and all 4 cases the patients had no immune system. One from some rare syndrome, the other three from cancer treatments, IIRC. In the meantime, the elderly population can get vaccinated (if they so choose) as vaccines become available. But, once the virus runs through the healthy population, and the so-called "herd immunity" is reached, the most contagious threat is over, and the elderly can rejoin the general population with a feeling of relative safety.

Alternatively, what we've been doing is these selective lockdowns, without any real incentivized backing. So people are having harder times making ends meet, eating their fill, getting their exercise, etc. 95% of your time sat around without exercise or leaving the house depresses the immune system, and increases likelihood of infection spread when you do move about. So you end up seeing waves, and as the elderly inevitably come in contact with these waves of less healthy people at the stores or hospitals or wherever else, their likelihood of contracting the virus is simply at a non-stop high. I mean, right on the face of it I acknowledge the issue with the primary at risk group (the elderly). I fully acknowledge that hospitals will run into some issues, though I'd expect it to be much MUCH easier now that there's some experience and knowledge in treating the virus and it's effects, as compared to April. The problem I see is the impact it's having on the low/no-risk 6/7ths of the population.

And this is where I have major issue with Politicians claiming they're simply "following the science" by "consulting health experts". Forget that the WHO and CDC advised against more lockdowns. Let's just go with whichever doctors the Politicians are quoting this week. I mean, airborne viruses such as covid (and yes, it IS airborne, CDC confirmed in October) are damned near impossible to reign in, but the overall death rate among those under 65 is incredibly low, and among 0-19 non-existent. So all the damage we've done by quarantining the healthy population simply wasn't helpful. But the damage to educations, businesses, supply chains, mental health, and overall fitness has been horrific. So the question, as you happen to be a medical professional is, do we all just stay locked down until all the elderly can be vaccinated? Keep the entire nation/world at a standstill until next summer, or is it maybe better to get things moving again, and use the increased tax incomes from a revitalized economy to incentivize the at-risk group (elderly, comorbidity, etc.) to continue a self-imposed quarantine?


The majority of spread,> 99% is via droplet, as any coronavirus. Influenza also has a small proportion of virions that remain contagious in the air for a finite time. It is not a statistically significant amount, ergo influenza is droplet precautions. It might sound confused but despite a statistically Insignificant amount of spread via air, it is still not considered airborne. Semantics here matter a lot

Again, it’s a problem for all ages in demographics when you rear high the point of hospital saturation. This is the point here. It doesn’t matter if every patient who has covid and is hospitalized is 90 years old if they are still taking 100,000 beds across the country. The 50 year old father who has a heart attack or the 25 year old sister (probably Asian) in a car accident. Everyone is effected when saturation happens, and the point it is HAPPENING. You will have half a million covid deaths by March, excess mortality will be higher than this however.

What I called for is too late. When the country went into lockdown it was clearly too early however everyone was just looking at NYC Detroit Chicago and it was difficult to say who Was next. The answer was to MASS TEST , OUTPATIENT, to know what society rates were. When rates got above X arbitrary % where the risk of rapid rise is imminent, you slow things down. When risk of true hospital saturation, more restrictions which should be very temporary and evaluated daily.

This only worked if you had mass outpatient testing to know your true rates of prevalence. The US failed miserably here and it wasn’t until mid/late summer that testing occurred outpatient. We were destined to never get control unless happened.

The problem is so multi factorial because American livelihoods are also dependent on work and there is NO safety net for the majority of Americans. I also called for proper financial relief for every American especially those unemployed. 80% of your monthly salary, judged by taxes from 2019 Or 2020, for at least 3 months. This takes financial pain away and therefore American as a whole can act more rationally. We absolutely had the money to accomplish that. Instead the US government decided to buy apple and Boeing corporate bonds. I cannot think how to describe this other than utterly fucking pathetic

U ask what to do now. I said I don’t have good answers. As I said my issue was with you somehow stating hospital saturation isn’t an issue. Right now the country will be in damage control.

By our half assed approach with both the finacjla aspect and the health aspect, we will have failed despicably on both fronts. All you can do is mitigation and recognize the problem. American livelihoods cannot suffer another lockdown and it’s clear Washington will not help. Americans also cannot afford a hospitalization every 5th family. And of course the loss of life is not insignificant. Don’t forget for every patient that does die, there are tens more than have grueling 15 day hospitalizations that they will never be the same from. The most we can do is perform mitigation measures up to our potential and help our neighbors and brothers the best we are able. We can start by acknowledging the problem exists and is very real which is why mitigation measures like masks and social distancing to whatever degree you can will, objectively, help. However, I personally don’t think anything can alter our trajectory. At the current rate you will see excess death far beyond any other first world country
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Dec 12 2020 08:51pm


https://mobile.twitter.com/LawrenceLepard/status/1337529407800532993
shop at target you bigots its more important than protecting Americans. enjoy your ‘94%’ vaccine while the ruling class gets to do whatever they want
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Dec 12 2020 10:21pm
Quote (InsaneBobb @ Dec 12 2020 06:54pm)
Last I checked, there are only 4 cases in the entire world where a person got it more than once, and all 4 cases the patients had no immune system. One from some rare syndrome, the other three from cancer treatments, IIRC. In the meantime, the elderly population can get vaccinated (if they so choose) as vaccines become available. But, once the virus runs through the healthy population, and the so-called "herd immunity" is reached, the most contagious threat is over, and the elderly can rejoin the general population with a feeling of relative safety.


CNN deserves to be blood eagled en-masse.
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Dec 12 2020 11:06pm
Quote (EndlessSky @ 12 Dec 2020 20:21)
CNN deserves to be blood eagled en-masse.


??? :o
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Dec 12 2020 11:35pm
Quote (InsaneBobb @ Dec 13 2020 12:06am)
??? :o


Lies now poison the flow of life on a scale heretofore unseen. The world would be better if their headquarters turned to ash.
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Dec 12 2020 11:38pm
Quote (EndlessSky @ 12 Dec 2020 21:35)
Lies now poison the flow of life on a scale heretofore unseen. The world would be better if their headquarters turned to ash.


They push a narrative, rather than presenting simple facts. When a program is attempting to tell you what to think, rather than simply giving you information to think about yourself, they're pundits, not news.

Effectively, everything that progressives accuse Tucker Carlson of, nearly every host on MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, and CNN are the same but worse. Tucker's not accusing everyone he doesn't like of being racist sexist etc. etc.

This is another reason why I look forward to the post-trump media crash.
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