I really don't see 6 Republicans voting for impeachment as a punishment, and even then it likely won't get that high. The signal sent is actually the opposite IMO. That you'll only get a handful of opposition from Republicans no matter what you do. Trump has absolutely smashed through the barriers to responsible governance. His Ukraine call, his self-enrichment, his super corrupt pardons, his Georgia call, his knowing lies about the election security, etc. etc. would have all ended any president before this' career. That he isn't being held to account over any of this by his own party really just cements that Republicans will not oppose irresponsible governance until you're actively leading a civil war.

I really dont think that Trump has broken any barriers because these barriers never existed to begin with - he merely exposed how far you can actually go, thanks to the opportunism and nihilism of the political class. The most important lesson the Trump years have taught us is probably the following: if politicians have to chose between "doing what's right" to uphold norms and values, even if it ends their political career, or going along with egregious and norm-breaking behavior so they can (politically) live to see another day, then almost all of them will choose the latter.

If a critical mass of voters is fine with problematic behavior or policy XYZ, then we cannot count on career politicians to sacrifice their own ambitions to stop it. Basically, the lesson is that we cannot delegate the task of upholding and defending democracy to an enlightened, noble class of politicians - democracy has to be defended and carried by the people themselves, we cant count on our politicians doing this job for us.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jan 22 2021 01:45pm

Imagine thinking that unity is possible with people like Ghot, Jere, EndlessSky, and addone.

It's an impossibility.

It's possible to become more unified, even while many forces in our country oppose that goal.

"The barriers never existed" is a ridiculous statement. Nixon resigned over much less. I also think it's ridiculous to think that politicians always choose norm-breaking behavior. Democrats on the whole still enormously value norms. The norm-breaking has come almost exclusively from Republicans in the past 12 years.

You're playing the false equivalence game and nothing more.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Jan 22 2021 05:32pm

A key talking point among the pro-Trumpists is that he wasn't an aberration... just a continuation of the "system". It's complete nonsense, but it's how they will move forward without acknowledging the mistakes they've made.

How naive. Nixon didnt resign because he had an epiphany and rediscovered his moral compass, he resigned because it had become clear that there would be enough Republican votes to get to 67 in favor of covinction in the Senate. And the reason why a sufficient number of Republican lawmakers broke with Nixon in this fashion is because public opinion had turned against him even among Republican voters. By contrast, a strong majority of Republicans opposes the Trump impeachment today, hence it would be career suicide for most GOP senators to vote in favor of it.


https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-impeachment-removal-polls/?cid=_inlinerelated
In pretty much every poll on impeachment, we see "No +60-70%" among Republicans. That's why the GOP doesnt break with Trump, end of story. Come on, this stuff really isnt rocket science...

Please support this

and honestly even if you do we know for a fact Trump actively obstructed, and did far worse than Nixon, so the idea that "we can't rely on a political class to hold their own accountable" is really one that speaks to the downfall of the Republican party, not something you can apply universally to politicians. It's clear that Democrats still value norms. You can't simultaneously have "the left eats its own" and "Democrats won't hold their own accountable".

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Jan 22 2021 06:12pm

LOL!!


Not a contradiction. The left eats its own over ideological impurity, not norms.

Nice non response.