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Mar 12 2012 05:30am
Quote (bogie160 @ Mar 12 2012 11:41am)
You're asking for the Israeli people to collectively commit suicide.


Are you saying that anything that doesn't involve oppressing the Palestinians is suicide for Israel?
Israel is a nation that can only survive on oppression?
I don't believe that be the case btw... but hypothetically, if that was the case , then Israel is a failed state.
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Mar 12 2012 06:11am
Quote (amatsukami @ Mar 12 2012 11:12am)
It was the solution which Ahmadinejad proposed, and Ahmadinejad is also striving to reduce the power of the ruling clerics of his country, this was a response to you saying that it was a double-speak by Ahmadinejad but the fact is that your claim is vague and inadequate.


It is double-speak, he's telling the West exactly what (at least Western liberals) they want to hear. His soundbytes sound nice, I won't lie, but they don't match up with what Iran is actually doing.
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Mar 12 2012 06:13am
Quote (ZingerSupreme @ Mar 12 2012 11:30am)
Are you saying that anything that doesn't involve oppressing the Palestinians is suicide for Israel?
Israel is a nation that can only survive on oppression?
I don't believe that be the case btw... but hypothetically, if that was the case , then Israel is a failed state.


If it involves allowing the Palestinian people to return to Israel en masse and participate in the political process, yes.

If it involves cutting off the West Bank in its entirety...partially, their security would be hinged upon strong American support and good relations with their neighbors.

Israel is understandably reluctant to take the latter option.
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Mar 12 2012 06:44am
Quote (bogie160 @ Mar 12 2012 02:11pm)
It is double-speak, he's telling the West exactly what (at least Western liberals) they want to hear. His soundbytes sound nice, I won't lie, but they don't match up with what Iran is actually doing.


However it is very possible that it match up with Ahmadinejads own principals and beliefs, whether it holds true to Iran as a whole is a different story. You were judgeing him on a individual basis.
Also whether or not it was double-speaking is not what is important here - it is clear is that it was not a proposal to annhilate the Israeli goverment &/or people.
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Mar 12 2012 07:13am
Quote (bogie160 @ Mar 12 2012 02:13pm)
If it involves allowing the Palestinian people to return to Israel en masse and participate in the political process, yes.


I don't agree. The Israeli population is large, even if all Palestinians return (though realistically not all of them will).
In fact I am almost certain that in such a scenario, no side can overpower the other.
They can create conditions to tailor for needs of both population, like a federal administration for example.
The worse thing that can happen is the political process might get deadlocked when the Jews and Palestinians don't agree on some important existential matter.
It would only be suicide for the concept of "Jewish" state... but the Jews can still live and prosper free in the land.

Quote (bogie160 @ Mar 12 2012 02:13pm)
If it involves cutting off the West Bank in its entirety...partially, their security would be hinged upon strong American support and good relations with their neighbors.

Israel is understandably reluctant to take the latter option.


Cutting it off and doing what? The Palestinians still would not have a state and it is not feasible to join West bank and Gaza into a separate state... in reality one state solution is the only fundamental solution that brings lasting peace. Anything else is maneuvering. Not to mention, the Israeli religious settlers in the West bank make this a none option. Personally I am happy with these settlers, since they make a one state solution inevitable by crossing out the option of West bank disengagement!
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Mar 12 2012 07:13am
Quote (bogie160 @ Mar 12 2012 07:11am)
It is double-speak, he's telling the West exactly what (at least Western liberals) they want to hear. His soundbytes sound nice, I won't lie, but they don't match up with what Iran is actually doing.


Ahmadinejad and the ruling clerics aren't on the best of terms.

In their last parliamentary elections the clerics did much better than the reformers (Ahmadinejad) however.
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Mar 12 2012 07:29am
Quote (ZingerSupreme @ Mar 12 2012 01:13pm)
I don't agree. The Israeli population is large, even if all Palestinians return (though realistically not all of them will).
In fact I am almost certain that in such a scenario, no side can overpower the other.
They can create conditions to tailor for needs of both population, like a federal administration for example.
The worse thing that can happen is the political process might get deadlocked when the Jews and Palestinians don't agree on some important existential matter.
It would only be suicide for the concept of "Jewish" state... but the Jews can still live and prosper free in the land.



Cutting it off and doing what? The Palestinians still would not have a state and it is not feasible to join West bank and Gaza into a separate state... in reality one state solution is the only fundamental solution that brings lasting peace. Anything else is maneuvering. Not to mention, the Israeli religious settlers in the West bank make this a none option. Personally I am happy with these settlers, since they make a one state solution inevitable by crossing out the option of West bank disengagement!


There are, broadly speaking, more Palestinians than Israelis. To add to this, the Palestinian people tend to reproduce at a higher rate than their Israeli counterparts.

There cannot be a one state solution that allows all Palestinians to return home, there cannot be a one-state solution that does not involve Israel assimilating the Palestinian people, not the other way around.

Israel cannot afford to exist in a perpetual deadlock between two equal constituents, they're surrounded by Arabs who would gladly side with the Palestinians. Israel must maintain control of its political system if its to continue to exist. Do you really believe that the Palestinians are going to just shelve decades of hate?
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Mar 12 2012 07:32am
Quote (amatsukami @ Mar 12 2012 12:44pm)
However it is very possible that it match up with Ahmadinejads own principals and beliefs, whether it holds true to Iran as a whole is a different story. You were judgeing him on a individual basis.
Also whether or not it was double-speaking is not what is important here - it is clear is that it was not a proposal to annhilate the Israeli goverment &/or people.


I am judging him as a reflection on his position. He is a leading public figure, and in many ways he represents Iran. In that light, his words are in blatant contradiction with what Iran is actually doing. Ahmadinejad has been just as willing to use inflammatory language in order to curry popular support back at home, in many ways it's necessary in order to shore up his domestic credibility in light of political opposition.

His conciliatory language abroad contradicts his posturing at home. That's double-speak.
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Mar 12 2012 07:46am
Quote (bogie160 @ Mar 12 2012 03:29pm)
There are, broadly speaking, more Palestinians than Israelis. To add to this, the Palestinian people tend to reproduce at a higher rate than their Israeli counterparts.

There cannot be a one state solution that allows all Palestinians to return home, there cannot be a one-state solution that does not involve Israel assimilating the Palestinian people, not the other way around.

Israel cannot afford to exist in a perpetual deadlock between two equal constituents, they're surrounded by Arabs who would gladly side with the Palestinians. Israel must maintain control of its political system if its to continue to exist. Do you really believe that  the Palestinians are going to just shelve decades of hate?


Whoever is slightly ahead, there is no majority and minority... they are for all practical purposes equal.
Reproductive rates are a function of wealth and education. Look at West bank rates today, settlers reproduce more than West bank Palestinians.
I can go more in detail in another thread... suffice to say here, there is no demographic threat to Jews.

As for the rest... Israel seems can afford to stay in perpetual war... how much worse is perpetual political deadlock? Isn't that why political systems are established to begin with? To make mediums in which conflicts of interest are resolved more civil?
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Mar 12 2012 09:36am
Quote (ZingerSupreme @ Mar 12 2012 11:27am)
Jews that were in Israel prior to immigration are a very tiny fraction. The rest came from other Arabic countries, Europe, Russia... etc.
So they are indeed outside settlers no matter the imaged continuity Zionist ideology feeds it's followers.
Nevertheless, personally, I don't have problem with Jewish settlement.



Call them Arabic clans, Palestinians, or whatever else you want, it doesn't matter. The point is that there was a human population in that area that were and still are being denied their rights.
It was never at any point an unsettled land.

Yes, there was a point which the land was unsettled. Fuck, my grand grand father worked in drying swamps so they can live there.
The place where i'm living right now was given to the Jewish population in it only AFTER the Arab's nearby approved its borders. If you are looking for injustice - i suggest we get to the point when its all exploded and the fighting started. 


Co-exist on what terms? Does that include granting them political rights?
Or by co-exist you mean as second class citizens to provide cheap labor?


There are Israeli-Palestinians. Palestinians which have Israeli ID. You don't hear them complaining on T.V.
Cheap labor ? yes, there are some which are still working in type of works which no Jew wants too. My dentists is Arab from the nearby village, my pharmacist is also Arab and my doctor as well. In conversations i had with them they will always tell you that they learned at school while others refused too.
And the last time I checked - their vote is counted just like my.
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