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Jan 15 2020 12:12pm
Quote (fender @ Jan 15 2020 11:12am)
did you seriously misread 'googling something' for 'digging up your old history textbooks'? because that's the only way your little exercise would 'prove' something.
also, what do you mean by 'wiki entry also doesn't cover it', when the very first line of the whole article is a link to the 1812 battle of borodino?! - all you've done is illustrate how easy it is really is to stumble upon that "esoteric tidbit"...

that said, i read both articles and (re)learned some history as well. i love that kind of stuff...


I'm working on demonstrating that finding the information I presented to you about the 2nd battle at Borodino is NOT easily found, even by Google, and the fact that I bought it up should have told you I was aware of the historical significance of the 1st battle, roundly smashing your notion that you were enlightening me to European history. What it comes down to is that in late summer/early fall of 1941, most of the world felt the Nazis were weeks away at most from defeating the Soviets, and Stalin, in an effort to EVOKE the spirit of the Russian victory over Napoleon to get his armies fighting harder, sent his armies to fight at Borodino hoping they could pull off a win. What's esoteric is Stalin's push to fight the lost battle at Borodino. But once you see my source for it, you'll learn it had nothing to do with Google, and everything to do with the fact that I AM a student of history. Not only that, but a graduate of those poor American public schools you're trashing, and at the end of the day, I'm better than you at your own topic.
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Jan 15 2020 12:39pm
Quote (Santara @ 15 Jan 2020 19:12)
I'm working on demonstrating that finding the information I presented to you about the 2nd battle at Borodino is NOT easily found, even by Google, and the fact that I bought it up should have told you I was aware of the historical significance of the 1st battle, roundly smashing your notion that you were enlightening me to European history. What it comes down to is that in late summer/early fall of 1941, most of the world felt the Nazis were weeks away at most from defeating the Soviets, and Stalin, in an effort to EVOKE the spirit of the Russian victory over Napoleon to get his armies fighting harder, sent his armies to fight at Borodino hoping they could pull off a win. What's esoteric is Stalin's push to fight the lost battle at Borodino. But once you see my source for it, you'll learn it had nothing to do with Google, and everything to do with the fact that I AM a student of history. Not only that, but a graduate of those poor American public schools you're trashing, and at the end of the day, I'm better than you at your own topic.


well, that was a massive fail then. as i pointed out to you in my last post, even bloody wikipedia connects those two immediately, and that's quite literally the lowest possible hurdle imaginable. even the most obscure detail you might produce to prove your 'superiority' and 'i totally knew that from the beginning' in the next couple of hours, won't be more than three clicks away from that article.

Quote (thesnipa @ 15 Jan 2020 18:52)
firstly, what are some indicators you use in judging when i'm "upset" exactly? because you tell me when i'm upset with about 10% accuracy overall.

secondly, i didnt use german lack of sarcasm use as an excuse for anything. i simply posited it might play a role here, because again you're not very accurate discerning it, like when people are "upset". i think, on a serious note, that it has nothing to do with your ability to sense sarcasm, but is instead a tactic you use to refuse to give ground. refusing to accept when someone says they were joking is generally bad form in PARD or elsewhere. people should be allowed to joke, you should be allowed to take them seriously, then they are allowed to tell you they were joking, and you should be able to accept it. if instead you constantly try to imply they were serious the whole time it just makes conversations generally less fun. some people are here just for fun, some for only knives out conversations, and most are inbetween. you seem to be far into the knives out side of the spectrum, which is fine, but assuming everyone else is also is just bad communication. its "too serious guy at a dinner party" behavior.

as to the topic of German sarcasm generally, are you saying you think sarcastic humor in German culture is actually just as prevalent as say the UK or USA? obviously germans being entirely unable to sense sarcasm is a stereotype, but stereotypes are also generally based in some truth.


'upset' as in frantically trying to dismiss well know facts, just because they reflect badly on american education, and supported my initial point.

did i reply to your initial 'joke'? nop, i identified it as such and have no problem with your characterisation as 'low effort attempt at humour'. do i believe you were joking when you suggested that resorting to your old pettiness in future conversations would be my fault? no, i'm confident you were serious about that, and only resorted to the 'joke' excuse when i clarified how that decision is entirely up to you.

you see, i DO distinguish between comments intended to be humourous, and those that people just pretend to have made in jest because they can't admit they're wrong. just because you only react to the latter, usually by suggesting i don't get sarcasm / humour, doesn't mean i don't get when people are joking.

as to your last question: no. i'm neither saying nor suggesting that. what i'm saying is that it's a stereotype that was very flimsy to begin with, especially if you don't even differentiate between 'getting' sarcasm and enjoying sarcastic humour. that said, it has always been a thing here, even if it's admittedly not AS prevalent (sneaky goal post) as in english humour. all that makes your assumption concerning my understanding of sarcasm rather questionable, especially if you take into account that you're dealing with someone who is obviously rather familiar with anglo cultures.
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Jan 15 2020 12:43pm
Quote (fender @ Jan 15 2020 12:39pm)
well, that was a massive fail then. as i pointed out to you in my last post, even bloody wikipedia connects those two immediately, and that's quite literally the lowest possible hurdle imaginable. even the most obscure detail you might produce to prove your 'superiority' and 'i totally knew that from the beginning' in the next couple of hours, won't be more than three clicks away from that article.


The first and second battles at Borodino are connected???

Dude, the fucking point is flying straight past you.
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Jan 15 2020 12:47pm
Quote (Santara @ 15 Jan 2020 19:43)
The first and second battles at Borodino are connected???

Dude, the fucking point is flying straight past you.


even wikipedia connects them ≠ i think they are historically connected

just click on the article you linked. literally the first sentence in it is: "For the 1812 battle, see Battle of Borodino.", directly refuting your claim that wiki doesn't even cover it.

are you strawmanning so hard right now because i refuted your 'esoteric tidbit' claim, or is your reading comprehension really that bad?!

This post was edited by fender on Jan 15 2020 12:52pm
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Jan 15 2020 12:59pm
Quote (fender @ Jan 15 2020 12:39pm)
'upset' as in frantically trying to dismiss well know facts, just because they reflect badly on american education, and supported my initial point.


you seem confused, i didnt try to deny the ineffectiveness of the US education system. i said, learning isnt retention. we have a problem in the US with retention, likely because our meta supports passing tests then moving on, rather than lessons that stick with you. my wife is a teacher in america, i more well versed and opposed to problems with the education system than you can imagine.

Quote
did i reply to your initial 'joke'? nop, i identified it as such and have no problem with your characterisation as 'low effort attempt at humour'. do i believe you were joking when you suggested that resorting to your old pettiness in future conversations would be my fault? no, i'm confident you were serious about that, and only resorted to the 'joke' excuse when i clarified how that decision is entirely up to you.


i have no intentions of returning to my petty ways. while im not above getting in hte mud from time to time my life has taken such an amazing upturn that from a personal perspective the rage and frustration that drove much of my negative behavior just isnt there. its not that im choosing to be nicer, its that being mean is no longer stress relief. but life has a way of surprising you so who knows. it truly was just a joke, if you're willing to accept that ok.

Quote
you see, i DO distinguish between comments intended to be humourous, and those that people just pretend to have made in jest because they can't admit they're wrong. just because you only react to the latter, usually by suggesting i don't get sarcasm / humour, doesn't mean i don't get when people are joking.


i said that specifically because you're the only poster prone to accusing others of not actually joking. i cant think of a single other pard poster who does this, not even one. but if u have examples of others trying to hold people over the coals on a disagreement of humorous intent, please lmk. it could be my bias, willing to be proven dead wrong.


Quote
as to your last question: no. i'm neither saying nor suggesting that. what i'm saying is that it's a stereotype that was very flimsy to begin with, especially if you don't even differentiate between 'getting' sarcasm and enjoying sarcastic humour. that said, it has always been a thing here, even if it's admittedly not AS prevalent (sneaky goal post) as in english humour. all that makes your assumption concerning my understanding of sarcasm rather questionable, especially if you take into account that you're dealing with someone who is obviously rather familiar with anglo cultures.


what ive seen from discussions is that sarcasm isnt tied to languages, but cultures. and therefore the explanation is that germany doesnt foster a culture for sarcasm like other places. kind of like how someone could confuse the japanese love of haiku for a love of poetry, rather than the love of order and simplicity that facilitates haiku's existence.

i will say you do have a good understanding of anglo culture compared to many of your german peers, or even european peers, but many of your european brethren in my experience still have blindspots. many of them catch me by surprise because of the gap in perspectives. on my visit to Scotland for example many people found the range of annual temperatures to be insane, -40F to 110F in a calendar year. not the best example but...
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Jan 15 2020 01:01pm
Quote (fender @ Jan 15 2020 12:47pm)
even wikipedia connects them ≠ i think they are historically connected

just click on the article you linked. literally the first sentence in it is: "For the 1812 battle, see Battle of Borodino.", directly refuting your claim that wiki doesn't even cover it.

are you strawmanning so hard right now because i refuted your 'esoteric tidbit' claim, or is your reading comprehension really that bad?!


Dude, the original battle is very well known, the second one is a virtual unknown item in most of the world, and I was telling you details about the unknown battle that aren't even on the link. You really can't connect dots, can you?
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Jan 15 2020 01:07pm
Quote (Santara @ Jan 15 2020 01:01pm)
Dude, the original battle is very well known, the second one is a virtual unknown item in most of the world, and I was telling you details about the unknown battle that aren't even on the link. You really can't connect dots, can you?


at this point, if it wasnt fender, id lean towards trolling. but alas.
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Jan 15 2020 01:24pm
Quote (Santara @ 15 Jan 2020 20:01)
Dude, the original battle is very well known, the second one is a virtual unknown item in most of the world, and I was telling you details about the unknown battle that aren't even on the link. You really can't connect dots, can you?


yeah, let's pretend you didn't just act like i suggested the battles were connected. you really can't connect dots have poor reading comprehension.

like i said, dude - even the most obscure detail, esoteric tidbit, fascinating history buff factoid, is just three clicks away from wikipedia directly linking those two battles - so you including one in your reply, some 80 minutes after i called you out on your obvious misconception, is hardly the proof you're trying to pretend it is...
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Jan 15 2020 02:11pm
Quote (fender @ Jan 15 2020 01:24pm)
yeah, let's pretend you didn't just act like i suggested the battles were connected. you really can't connect dots have poor reading comprehension.

like i said, dude - even the most obscure detail, esoteric tidbit, fascinating history buff factoid, is just three clicks away from wikipedia directly linking those two battles - so you including one in your reply, some 80 minutes after i called you out on your obvious misconception, is hardly the proof you're trying to pretend it is...


maybe you should ask how he knows that factoid, since he's eluded several times to that also being telling.

interestingly tho if someone replies fast they're "upset" and if someone replies slow they're "researching to cover a lie".
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Jan 15 2020 02:37pm
Quote (thesnipa @ 15 Jan 2020 15:11)
maybe you should ask how he knows that factoid, since he's eluded several times to that also being telling.

interestingly tho if someone replies fast they're "upset" and if someone replies slow they're "researching to cover a lie".


heads i win tails you lose - the fender aka heinrich 'special' school of arguing
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