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May 31 2018 04:21pm
RAJOY IS FINISHED, GAME OVER, BYE-BYE

Rajoy will stop leading the spanish government tomorrow. A few days ago, I posted this:

Quote (zarkadon @ 28 May 2018 12:54)
In other spanish news. The decade long trial against a huge corruption case involving the centre-right party PP (Rajoy's party) came to an end last week. Several important memebers of the party (well, formerly important... they were shoved to a side as the trial's investigation progressed) have been convicted with very long prison sentences, and the party as a whole has been declared beneficiary of the scheme and given partial responsibility.

This has led to Pedro Sánchez, the leader of the opposition and the centre-left party PSOE, to file a vote in parliament to kick out Rajoy and take over his position. He will need 176 affirmative votes out of the 350 seats in parliament. He has the backing of his own men (85 seats), the left-to-far-left party UP (71 seats), catalan separatist left win party ERC (9 seats) and basque separatist left-wing party Bildu (2 seats), for a total of 167 seats. He will need the support of either the centrist C's (32 seats) or both the basque nationalist right-wing PNV (5 seats) or the catalan separatist right-wing PDeCat (8 seats), to form a majority. The one seat from the Canarian regionalist centrist party CC is irrelevant, although they said they'll vote no because they don't want to create further turmoil.

PNV and PDeCat say they'd be ok with a change, so long as the new spanish government makes important concessions to the basque regions and Catalonia. C's said they'd only support the proposal if Sánchez promised to immediately call for elections, so that the citizens can decide who is the next president; otherwise they will null-vote, or vote against it (depending on whether separatist PSOE has negotiated concessions to the separatists or not).

This has created a climate of uncertainty and lack of stability... it's really hard to tell what will happen. Elections would be the best way out imo, but Pedro Sánchez (centre-left party PSOE's leader) is not interested in that, as the polls right now don't favour him, but I don't think his party would accept making significant concessions to separatists either. Rajoy is also not interested in there being elections, as he knows for sure that his party will suffer big time after his lack of actions during the catalan issue until the Court ordered him to, and this huge corruption case that has now exploded in his face.

edit: it has just been announced that the parliamentary debate and vote to kick out Rajoy will be held this Thursday and Friday.


Well now the right-wing catalan separatist party PDeCat and the right-wing basque nationalist party have both agreed to kick out Rajoy, giving Pedro Sánchez (centre-left party PSOE's leader) enough votes to take over his seat tomorrow. Rajoy can still resign, stopping the process and leaving Spain without a government until the parliament elects someone, but it doesn't seem likely as the party has announced that he won't do it and will take the "sacking". Regardless of what he does, tomorrow he will stop being president.

Whatever happens tomorrow, uncertainty lies ahead. In the likely scenario where Rajoy doesn't resign and Pedro Sánchez takes over, the new government would only hold 84 of the 350 seats, as Sánchez insists that he won't form a coalition with any other party. The only way he could govern in a stable manner would be with massive appeasement policies towards the catalan and basque nationalists and separatists, which is complicated in the current climate that keeps the catalan crisis at the heart of the debate. It would likely destroy his party in the following elections. Sánchez would likely have to call for elections soon.

If on the other hand Rajoy resigns, there'd be even more uncertainty, as we wouldn't have a government anymore for an undefined period of time... if the parliament can't elect a president, we'd have to wait two years until the next elections, as only a fully empowered president can trigger elections according to our constitution. However, elections are automatically triggered 3 months after a candidate fails a parliamentary vote to be elected president. So this could be a likely outcome.

So yeah, I can see elections coming before the end of the year.

Quote (fender @ 28 May 2018 22:40)
...






but that's what he's charged with, the extradition request was not based on 'something something', but explicitly 'rebellion' - and that's also what most of the others who are currently imprisoned are charged with.
to me it looks like you're finally admitting what the german court found: that the evidence for that just isn't really there, you just don't want to say it outright.
so maybe let's stay with what we know and what we don't, so we don't have to resort half-assed backpedals ('i didn't say XY explicitly, i just acted like it's a reasonable charge throughout this whole discussion') or blame the ignorance concerning legal details (the goalposts are not even in the stadium anymore at this point) for not explicitly stating an (obvious) opinion.

oh, and concerning your sources, i'd really appreciate something in english since i don't speak spanish. you could tell me anything (which i honestly don't think you'd do, you probably cherry picked and only present evidence for one side, but i don't think you'd outright lie about what's in there), but i'd rather be able to read it myself since this really interests me.
____________________________________________________________

https://i.imgur.com/o6gSDl3.png

oh right, no police brutality, that's just 'fake news'. when you're so brainwashed that you dismiss even the most obvious things as 'fake news' just because they don't fit your narrative, you know that you've gone full r... never go full r...


Well, obviously I'm not lying, thanks for at least agreeing on this, but I understand what you mean. I've posted links in English whenever I've found them. In the thread we had specifically about the catalan issue I did so several times. The problem is that international interest on the subject has declined, and there aren't as many news articles about this in English anymore. It's pretty hard to find news in English from sources I know or consider credible... I could post some from "Tabarnia Today" or "Ara.cat", but they are propaganda sites (unionist and separatist respectively) with a very strong bias, which translate articles into English for the sole purpose of selling their story to the rest of the world. I felt like this wasn't the right thing to do, and I rather post stuff from media I know are credible. El País, which is (along with El Mundo and ABC) one of the 3 most reputed newspapers in Spain (obviously they each have their own agenda, like all media, but I mean they have a very long and clean history), has an English version, but it only translates a small fraction of its content, and it's often tl;dr versions, so it's not that great. I'm obviously aware that you (or the vast majority of people here) don't speak spanish, but I figured that it would be better to post those sources and let google translate do the job.

Regarding the last thing I posted, about the EnfoCATs document, I've found this somewhat poorly translated article in english by the catalan separatist media "elnnacional.cat": https://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/spain-supreme-court-widens-investigation-independence_220434_102.html

Quote
Enfocats is a document which the Civil Guard found at the house of the general secretary of the Catalan Economy ministry, Josep Maria Jové, during the searches on 20th September. The Civil Guard places a lot of importance on the report because "it reflects the existence of a group of individuals who defined how and when to carry out each of the actions of the [independence] process and, consequently, of the violence and tumult".
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May 31 2018 04:26pm
imo women should be allowed to wear hijab, shayla, chador and anything that doesn't cover the face. The government shouldn't have a say in that, as people should have the right to wear what they want. Stuff like niqab and burka should be banned though, for security reasons.
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May 31 2018 05:30pm
Quote (dro94 @ 31 May 2018 23:37)
The Burqa (and modifications) are items of clothing. Its symbolic meaning is subjective for the most part and while I agree it is a sign of oppression for many Muslim women, there are millions who freely choose to wear it. The bottom line is that the government is telling people what they can and can't wear. You can't deny or get around that simple fact, no matter how you try and present the burqa as something entirely distinct from clothing.


i will agree with zark here, when the face is hidden thats where i draw the line and it has nothing to do with clothing anymore
everything else like the standard hijab is not my cup of tea obviously, but it is acceptable to wear those in public
its a question of equality, culture and there are also restrictions when it comes to hiding your face

i refuse to accept special treatment, i am not supposed to wear a helmet or ski mask, when entering a bank for example
or maybe it just needs to become a religious symbol :santa:

@zark

good riddance imo, rajoy appeared to be a poor mans merkel from my perspective, trying to sit out problems, which didnt work

just dont fall into chaos like italy :lol:

This post was edited by ampoo on May 31 2018 05:40pm
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May 31 2018 05:48pm
Quote (zarkadon @ May 31 2018 06:26pm)
imo women should be allowed to wear hijab, shayla, chador and anything that doesn't cover the face. The government shouldn't have a say in that, as people should have the right to wear what they want. Stuff like niqab and burka should be banned though, for security reasons.




That's all I'm saying. Hell, most of the old ladies of the world have something tied around their heads.
But when you cover the face, the security issues rise very fast.
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Jun 1 2018 04:25am
Rajoy officially sacked now. Pedro Sánchez is the new president of Spain.

Quote (ampoo @ 1 Jun 2018 01:30)
@zark

good riddance imo, rajoy appeared to be a poor mans merkel from my perspective, trying to sit out problems, which didnt work

just dont fall into chaos like italy :lol:


Yes, good riddance indeed. While he did help improve the economic mess Zapatero had left, he didn't do anything in pretty much every other area, and also failed to soften some of his budget cuts after the situation improved, while he kept pumping millions into maintaining unnecessary structures for his fellow politicians to have a jobs and his party's cronies were involved in corruption scandals (but of course, how could he know, how could he imagine... a guy who doesn't control what happens inside his party can't run the country).

HOWEVER, I can't say the alternative led by Pedro Sánchez is going to be any better. Yes, he seems clean, but he has no government plan whatsoever (he in fact filed this vote against Rajoy expecting to lose it, as he never thought that PNV or PDeCat would support him... this is apparent by the fact that he didn't start an official round of negotiations with any party and that yesterday, during the debate, he reminded Rajoy up to 7 times that this could all be over if he resigned). And what's also unsettling is that his party has only 84 seats out of the total of 350... meaning that he will have to negotiate with a lot of different parties to pass laws, some of which are separatists and nationalists which always set a high price for their votes.

I can't see this lastig for too long. I believe we will have elections before the end of the year.
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Jun 1 2018 03:32pm
Quote (zarkadon @ Jun 1 2018 11:25am)
Rajoy officially sacked now. Pedro Sánchez is the new president of Spain.



Yes, good riddance indeed. While he did help improve the economic mess Zapatero had left, he didn't do anything in pretty much every other area, and also failed to soften some of his budget cuts after the situation improved, while he kept pumping millions into maintaining unnecessary structures for his fellow politicians to have a jobs and his party's cronies were involved in corruption scandals (but of course, how could he know, how could he imagine... a guy who doesn't control what happens inside his party can't run the country).

HOWEVER, I can't say the alternative led by Pedro Sánchez is going to be any better. Yes, he seems clean, but he has no government plan whatsoever (he in fact filed this vote against Rajoy expecting to lose it, as he never thought that PNV or PDeCat would support him... this is apparent by the fact that he didn't start an official round of negotiations with any party and that yesterday, during the debate, he reminded Rajoy up to 7 times that this could all be over if he resigned). And what's also unsettling is that his party has only 84 seats out of the total of 350... meaning that he will have to negotiate with a lot of different parties to pass laws, some of which are separatists and nationalists which always set a high price for their votes.

I can't see this lastig for too long. I believe we will have elections before the end of the year.



Keep us posted on this mate, will be interesting to see how it turns out and there’s not a lot of detail on English media
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Jun 1 2018 03:36pm
Quote (dro94 @ Jun 1 2018 03:32pm)
Keep us posted on this mate, will be interesting to see how it turns out and there’s not a lot of detail on English media


2nd that. most of this i cant even find a story in US media
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Jun 1 2018 05:02pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Jun 1 2018 10:36pm)
2nd that. most of this i cant even find a story in US media



Any other Americans out there closet following this thread? Put your hands up
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Jun 1 2018 05:25pm
Quote (zarkadon @ May 31 2018 05:26pm)
imo women should be allowed to wear hijab, shayla, chador and anything that doesn't cover the face. The government shouldn't have a say in that, as people should have the right to wear what they want. Stuff like niqab and burka should be banned though, for security reasons.


Are you talking about in banks or something?

Quote (dro94 @ Jun 1 2018 06:02pm)
Any other Americans out there closet following this thread? Put your hands up


Here. But I don't now much about Spanish politics so its a lot of learning and connecting dots.

To be fair Ukraine has been the most interesting story from 1995-2017 as far as European nations go. Shit is firing up in the West again though.

Hope you guys don't have a meltdown again lol.

This post was edited by Skinned on Jun 1 2018 05:28pm
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Jun 3 2018 11:23am


German police rule out 'terrorism' in Berlin knife rampage

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-shooting/german-police-rule-out-terrorism-in-berlin-knife-rampage-idUSKCN1IZ0MZ

Quote
BERLIN (Reuters) - German police on Sunday said they had shot and injured a man who had rampaged with a knife through the Berlin Cathedral, and also said there were no signs the incident was politically motivated.

Police said on Twitter that officers rushed to the scene after a staff member at the Berliner Dom, a major tourist attraction on the historic Museum Island in the German capital, called the emergency services to report the incident.

A policeman shot the knife-wielding man in the legs. One policeman was also injured, police said, providing no details on how the injuries were sustained.

Both the suspect and the police officer were taken to hospital for treatment. Some 100 people were at the Dom at the time, police said.

“There are no indications that the motive was terrorism- or Islamist-related,” police wrote on Twitter.



I'm suspicious. I'm not acquainted with the Berlin Cathedral, but it sounds like a church to me. Which makes me wonder why they don't think it was Islamist related?



Britain says militant Islamist threat to stay high and may rise further

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-security/britain-says-militant-islamist-threat-to-stay-high-and-may-rise-further-idUSKCN1IZ0EL

Quote
The current threat level to Britain is assessed as severe, meaning an attack is highly likely. The government said it had foiled 25 Islamist militant plots since June 2013 - 12 of those since March 2017 - and was currently handling over 500 live operations.


I always thought that the main reason for the UK to leave the EU was about immigration.

Quote
“In summary we expect the threat from Islamist terrorism to remain at its current, heightened level for at least the next two years, and that it may increase further,” the ministry said in a statement.


Kinda fits with the timeline they mention.
I'll be curious to see if the UK changes it's immigration policies, after Brexit is finished being carried out.


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