Quote (Goomshill @ Oct 22 2020 10:23am)

The biggest problem with Euromaidan is that it was never in Ukraine's interests
They kick out the Russian-aligned oligarchy and install a western-aligned oligarchy, the people still get their wealth looted by kleptocrats, there's no change in quality of life
But they get to be closer to NATO! NATO expansionism! That's totally in Ukraine's favor, right?
Except, the US and EU was never willing to act to protect Ukraine. Its not our backyard, we won't stand up for them like we would for Germany or France
So when Russia responded to NATO expansion by annexing Crimea, Obama didn't lift a finger. Then Merkel agreed with Russia to build a pipeline literally around Ukraine just to deprive them of their geopolitical leverage.

The jingoist US propaganda line is that we're the saviors of Ukraine coming to rid the country of its kleptocrats and corrupt bureaucracy. But in reality, the corrupt westerners were looting Ukraine- all the way up to the top, the Vice President himself, let alone all the power structure of the corporations under him- Zlochelvsky is just one oligarch, after all.
Russia has a vested interest in Ukraine and a willingness to act to protect those interests. Its not a good relationship for the non-ethnic-russian ukrainians, but if the west was always going to abandon them anyway, what did they gain?

In terms of US interests: The Obama/Biden interventionalism in Ukraine was a fucking catastrophic failure, an unmitigated disaster. We let Russia take Crimea unchecked, we gained basically nothing in our relationship even with a vassal state as its more liability than benefit, and then Obama topped it off by responding to Crimea by stepping up support for anti-Assad rebels in Syria which backfired horrifically and killed hundreds of thousands of people, spawned ISIS and destabilized the EU under a refugee crisis that continues to erode the west from within.


There are bleeding heart liberal idealists and unreasonable libertarian purists alike who would insist the US should never be engaging in CIA-backed coups of foreign countries to pursue our corrupt interests. I don't think that's even necessarily the case. I don't categorically rule out cynical interventionalism, I just think it actually has to be in our interests in the long run. If toppling mideast dictators in the Arab Spring was a good idea, then we should have done it. If killing Saddam and Gadaffi was a good idea, I'm all for it. But they weren't. They were fucking moronic. And that was the legacy of the Bush, Rove, Obama, Clinton, Biden foreign policy. It was profound incompetence.

Quote (Skinned @ Oct 22 2020 03:37pm)

I've been following Ukrainian politics pretty closely since the Orange Revolution. It is very interesting. A lot of bandwagoners lately lol. When Yulia Tymoshenko took power I was like H E L L O.

Quote (Djunior @ Oct 22 2020 12:54pm)

Dude, Timoshenko was pro EU integration and Russia is never going to allow that because of the strategic location of the country and particularly Crimea where they have their black sea fleet in Sevastopol. These are such bad ideas it's stupefying.

How would you like it if the Russians walked into a country bordering the US like they did in 1969 for example? Right

Quote

Bobulinski specifically confirmed that “the big guy” was Joe Biden.
“Hunter Biden called his dad “the Big Guy” or “my Chairman,” and frequently referenced asking him for his sign-off or advice on various potential deals that we were discussing,” he said in the devastating statement.

Quote (Thor123422 @ Oct 22 2020 12:25pm)

Goom, I'm gonna give you some advice here.

This is why you should try to keep credibility on these issues. Because you've lied your ass off to defend Trump for 4 years now, I genuinely can't take your word on anything having to do with Biden. I'd have to look into this myself to have any kind of certainty if something was actually happening, and let's be honest the average person doesn't have that time. I certainly don't anymore.

So while Biden leveraging his political position for personal gain wouldn't exactly surprise me, any contribution you, bogie, void, etc. etc. make to this is worth exactly nothing to me because you've made it clear you aren't capable of looking at anything having to do with Biden without foaming at the mouth.

Quote (Thor123422 @ Oct 22 2020 12:25pm)

Goom, I'm gonna give you some advice here.

This is why you should try to keep credibility on these issues. Because you've lied your ass off to defend Trump for 4 years now, I genuinely can't take your word on anything having to do with Biden. I'd have to look into this myself to have any kind of certainty if something was actually happening, and let's be honest the average person doesn't have that time. I certainly don't anymore.

So while Biden leveraging his political position for personal gain wouldn't exactly surprise me, any contribution you, bogie, void, etc. etc. make to this is worth exactly nothing to me because you've made it clear you aren't capable of looking at anything having to do with Biden without foaming at the mouth.

Quote (Thor123422 @ Oct 22 2020 01:25pm)

Goom, I'm gonna give you some advice here.

This is why you should try to keep credibility on these issues. Because you've lied your ass off to defend Trump for 4 years now, I genuinely can't take your word on anything having to do with Biden. I'd have to look into this myself to have any kind of certainty if something was actually happening, and let's be honest the average person doesn't have that time. I certainly don't anymore.

So while Biden leveraging his political position for personal gain wouldn't exactly surprise me, any contribution you, bogie, void, etc. etc. make to this is worth exactly nothing to me because you've made it clear you aren't capable of looking at anything having to do with Biden without foaming at the mouth.