Libertarianism is the only mental disability I know of that will cause someone to tell poor people they'll be poorer if they make more money.

Oh and let's not forget the fact that more money in the pockets of people who spend it is the only thing that creates jobs. Sorry to everyone for making you all read all the giant posts of rage and tears these little kids are now going to make about how rich corporations magically create jobs from their free market mana pool.

This post was edited by RiskOfFire on Jan 27 2015 05:08pm

maybe instead of that you could take away that more money in pockets means increased price of goods. therefore the same amount of money comparatively. Why is it people think a gallon of milk will cost the same if McD's employees all make 15$/hour. The farmer still has to put in the same number of hours to get the milk the only factor that has changed is the amount of money floating in the pool of perspective buyers.

It's not that simple.

My rent is going to go up exactly zero dollars if the minimum wage is raised to 10$/hour. Why? Because there's nobody at my apartment complex that makes below that.

The price of McDonalds will go up, but it will go up less than the cost to raise the pay of the employees. It will also go up less because as spending power of the lowest class goes up, so does the amount bought at places which employ minimum wage workers. Minimum wage workers at wal-mart going to 10$ an hour are going to spend virtually all of it on wal-mart products for their families. This means, in reality, wal-mart makes a good chunk of it back what they were paying extra. Henry Ford understood this and is why he paid his employees much higher wages than everybody else. Because higher wages means less turnover (saved cost for the business) more worker productivity (higher income for the business) and higher revenues (higher income for the business). Overall it has been studied and turns out that raising the minimum wage to a reasonable level grows the economy. Obviously if we raised it to 50$ an hour it would hinder, but a gradual raise to 11$ an hour over 5 or so years wouldn't have catastrophic effects, and this is generally agreed upon as evidenced by a letter sent last year including seven nobel leaureates in economics and seventy other economists urging the united states to raise its minimum wage.

The only sources which say that a gradual raise in the minimum wage would destroy business are right-wing funded sources that fire anybody who disagrees or produces results which don't just happen to benefit their donors. It's not hard to spot bullshit trying to pass itself off as legitimate papers, and Heritage, CATO, Liberty University, etc. stink to high heaven.

of course the issue is complicated, and i commend you on your well thought out explanation as i am not a strong economist in many senses. I was merely attempting to show that its not as simple as "give everyone more money and they will be exactly that much richer" The idea that unskilled labor like mcdonalds workers would get 15$ an hour instantly gives me nightmares. A 5 year gradual increase to 11$ is something i have no problem with, especially because it means ill be getting a raise as well.

well there's one way to find out

The price of 1 liter (1 qt.) of whole fat milk in Seattle is $0.92
http://www.expatistan.com/price/milk/seattle

anyone here from seattle want to tell us what the price was last year?



or we can reduce it to 0 and create more jobs!

This post was edited by duffman316 on Jan 27 2015 05:32pm

Zero wage means infinite jobs by libertarian logic.

This post was edited by Skinned on Jan 27 2015 05:59pm

And again you have no legitimate rebuttal to the presented logic, evidence and facts.

The CBO estimated 500k fewer jobs. Is that a right wing funded think tank?
Is the concept of supply and demand a right wing funded think tank? Are cause and effect right wing funded think tanks? How about common sense?

Your attempts to pretend there is a consensus of support for minimum wage among economists is beyond misleading.
Milton Friedman also won a nobel prize in economics. He successfully identified the negative effects of a minimum wage increase many years ago.

"Workers most likely to benefit are those with medium skills. Workers most likely to lose (be unemployed) are those with the lowest skills." -Caroline Hoxby, Stanford
The benefits go to the somewhat more skilled at the expense of the lowest, which does not seem to be desirable policy. -Robert Hall, Stanford
"David Neumark (UC-Irvine) and William Wascher (Federal Reserve Board) determined that 85 percent of the best research points to a loss of jobs following a minimum wage increase."

Yes economists who have a certain view are more likely to receive funds from certain entities. The fact that you disagree with them and try to mock them does not make them wrong.

Even when a small increase in the minimum wage has smaller negative effects on employment, a cost still exists. Whether its higher prices for consumers, fewer hours, disadvantages for poor/unskilled/minorities, etc.
The money has to come from somewhere.


Speaking of fallacies..
Calling people names and strawmanning them is uncivil and not an economic argument.



and another strawman to complete the cycle..

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Jan 27 2015 06:00pm

Nah, they just believe in supply/demand for labor without ANY interference.

Alright, that's cool. Rare event on PaRD right here. Convo ends with both parties satisfied.