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Aug 17 2022 01:31pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Aug 17 2022 10:28am)
The DNC is pouring money into Republican contests to ensure that Trumpian candidates win their races. That doesn't strike me as the line someone would take if they were legitimately concerned with a threat to democratic governance. The DNC calculates (probably correctly!) that it's easier to run against Trump endorsed candidates. They're begging Trump to run.


Campaign strategy isn't monolithic and I think it's insane that there are orgs (i.e. the governor of Illinois) that are engaging in this type of behavior. Many high profile Democrats have condemned this behavior, especially the ones on the Jan 6 committee, though. At the end of the day, The McCaskill strategy is nothing new and it's just a different risk calculation. After all, many Republicans were backing Bernie Sanders over Clinton and I think we can agree that a Sanders presidency would cause this nation to collapse.

Democrats don't need to beg Trump to run. He's been planning to run the day Biden was inaugurated and he's an inevitable candidate barring health implications. As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to bet that Trump could win the primary from within PRISON. He's the most loved Republican in history and voters will be talking about him for generations.
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Aug 17 2022 01:38pm
Quote (thundercock @ 17 Aug 2022 20:59)
Pelosi literally rejected two members who were INVOLVED WITH PLANNING JAN 6. Don't act like it's her fault when McCarthy knew EXACTLY what he was doing. We've gone over the sequence of events MULTIPLE times now so you're either have the memory of a goldfish or you're being disingenuous.

That still doesn't refute my argument. If Pelosi had been interested in genuine bipartisanship, she could have selected some boring backbench Republicans who were neither involved with Jan 6 nor rabid anti-Trumpers. Appointing Cheney and Kinzinger, the two most outspoken anti-Trump Republicans in all of Congress, tells you all there is to know about the (bi)partisanship of this committee.

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It's pretty obvious that the Dems have moved to the right on economic policy, ESPECIALLY when you compare it to what Obama ran on. Out of curiosity, what's your age? I don't want to ding you on not knowing about things like Occupy Wall Street, wanting to repeal the GWB tax cuts, etc. It's easy to look back at what the results were and pretend there wasn't a debate at the time but these folks were VERY liberal.

Mid-30s. This specific argument of yours isn't very compelling. Occupy Wall Street was mostly an activist movement, iirc, there were virtually no Democrats in elected office who were on board with their agenda. Obama, after having bailed out the banks, was cracking down on the Occupy Wall Street protesters.

Quote
For example, here is a quote by Obama before he ran: "I happen to be a proponent of a single-payer universal health care program. I see no reason why the United States of America, the wealthiest country in the history of the world, spending 14 percent of its gross national product on health care, cannot provide basic health insurance to everybody. And that's what Jim is talking about when he says everybody in, nobody out. A single-payer health care plan, a universal health care plan. That's what I’d like to see. But as all of you know, we may not get there immediately. Because first we've got to take back the White House, we've got to take back the Senate, and we've got to take back the House."

Obama always talked a big game and then underdelivered. In reality, he passed Obamacare, a healthcare reform which was much more measured and narrow in scope - and that's in spite of having a filibuster-proof supermajority! Compare this to Biden's spend-and-tax spree in the Inflation Reduction Act, which was passed in spite of much slimmer congressional majorities - and the party would have gone significantly further to the left if not for Manchin and Sinema. All the other swing state incumbents and candidates were on board for the original $3.5 trillion BBB bill, e.g. Kelly, Warnock, Fetterman, Cortez Mastro and so on.

And to reiterate: this all came against the backdrop of multi multi-trillion covid relief packages, some of which were passed while the pandemic was already abating and inflation picked up pace. Republicans and some economists warned that this would supercharge inflation, the Biden admin brushed these warnigns aside, claiming that inflation would be "transitory". It stood at 7.5% in January, and now, in August, the Biden admin celebrates the fact that inflation came down to 8.5% from the previous 9.1%...

Also, didn't Democrats already raise the corporate tax rates back up from where the 2017 Trump tax cuts left them? So it took Obama 4 years to repeal the Bush tax cuts for at least the highest income earners while making them permanent for everyone else, while Biden undid the Trump tax cuts during his first 18 months.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Aug 17 2022 01:41pm
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Aug 17 2022 01:49pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Aug 17 2022 12:38pm)
That still doesn't refute my argument. If Pelosi had been interested in genuine bipartisanship, she could have selected some boring backbench Republicans who were neither involved with Jan 6 nor rabid anti-Trumpers. Appointing Cheney and Kinzinger, the two most outspoken anti-Trump Republicans in all of Congress, tells you all there is to know about the (bi)partisanship of this committee.


Mid-30s. This specific argument of yours isn't very compelling. Occupy Wall Street was mostly an activist movement, iirc, there were virtually no Democrats in elected office who were on board with their agenda. Obama, after having bailed out the banks, was cracking down on the Occupy Wall Street protesters.


Obama always talked a big game and then underdelivered. In reality, he passed Obamacare, a healthcare reform which was much more measured and narrow in scope - and that's in spite of having a filibuster-proof supermajority! Compare this to Biden's spend-and-tax spree in the Inflation Reduction Act, which was passed in spite of much slimmer congressional majorities - and the party would have gone significantly further to the left if not for Manchin and Sinema. All the other swing state incumbents and candidates were on board for the original $3.5 trillion BBB bill, e.g. Kelly, Warnock, Fetterman, Cortez Mastro and so on.

And to reiterate: this all came against the backdrop of multi multi-trillion covid relief packages, some of which were passed while the pandemic was already abating and inflation picking up pace.

Also, didn't Democrats already raise the corporate tax rates back up from where the 2017 Trump tax cuts left them? So it took Obama 4 years to repeal the Bush tax cuts for at least the highest income earners while making them permanent for everyone else, while Biden undid the Trump tax cuts during his first 18 months.


She fucking DID THAT. Honestly, you need to read up on sequence of events because your memory is literally worse than Ghot's. Look, I understand that you want the committee to fail so that you can continue backing Trump but you can't really ignore the facts on this one. McCarthy made a gamble and lost big time.

As for the rest, now you're just moving the goal posts. You're effectively saying that because Obama was bad at his job, all Democrats are less liberal. Frankly, I don't buy that argument. I look at what was debated in committee, what activists wanted, etc. to determine that. The fact that the Democrats have gotten WAY more friendly with large corporations (and gotten a lot more $$ from them) should be a pretty good indicator of this shift. You act like 3.5T over 10 years that touches every executive agency is a lot of money.
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Aug 17 2022 02:06pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Aug 17 2022 02:38pm)
That still doesn't refute my argument. If Pelosi had been interested in genuine bipartisanship, she could have selected some boring backbench Republicans who were neither involved with Jan 6 nor rabid anti-Trumpers. Appointing Cheney and Kinzinger, the two most outspoken anti-Trump Republicans in all of Congress, tells you all there is to know about the (bi)partisanship of this committee.


Mid-30s. This specific argument of yours isn't very compelling. Occupy Wall Street was mostly an activist movement, iirc, there were virtually no Democrats in elected office who were on board with their agenda. Obama, after having bailed out the banks, was cracking down on the Occupy Wall Street protesters.


Obama always talked a big game and then underdelivered. In reality, he passed Obamacare, a healthcare reform which was much more measured and narrow in scope - and that's in spite of having a filibuster-proof supermajority! Compare this to Biden's spend-and-tax spree in the Inflation Reduction Act, which was passed in spite of much slimmer congressional majorities - and the party would have gone significantly further to the left if not for Manchin and Sinema. All the other swing state incumbents and candidates were on board for the original $3.5 trillion BBB bill, e.g. Kelly, Warnock, Fetterman, Cortez Mastro and so on.

And to reiterate: this all came against the backdrop of multi multi-trillion covid relief packages, some of which were passed while the pandemic was already abating and inflation picked up pace. Republicans and some economists warned that this would supercharge inflation, the Biden admin brushed these warnigns aside, claiming that inflation would be "transitory". It stood at 7.5% in January, and now, in August, the Biden admin celebrates the fact that inflation came down to 8.5% from the previous 9.1%...

Also, didn't Democrats already raise the corporate tax rates back up from where the 2017 Trump tax cuts left them? So it took Obama 4 years to repeal the Bush tax cuts for at least the highest income earners while making them permanent for everyone else, while Biden undid the Trump tax cuts during his first 18 months.


Cheney voted with TFG 93%, but sure...she's a "rabid anti-Trumper"

FOH.gif
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Aug 17 2022 02:10pm
Quote (thundercock @ 17 Aug 2022 21:49)
She fucking DID THAT. Honestly, you need to read up on sequence of events because your memory is literally worse than Ghot's. Look, I understand that you want the committee to fail so that you can continue backing Trump but you can't really ignore the facts on this one. McCarthy made a gamble and lost big time.

Hold on, we were discussing Cheney, not McCarthy or the committee. I know that McCarthy miscalculated when he blew up Pelosi's original proposal for a somewhat balanced, bipartisan committee. But once that ship had sailed, it was clear that the commitee would be a partisan show trial, and Cheney is responsible for making herself available for this charade.

Quote
As for the rest, now you're just moving the goal posts. You're effectively saying that because Obama was bad at his job, all Democrats are less liberal. Frankly, I don't buy that argument. I look at what was debated in committee, what activists wanted, etc. to determine that. The fact that the Democrats have gotten WAY more friendly with large corporations (and gotten a lot more $$ from them) should be a pretty good indicator of this shift. You act like 3.5T over 10 years that touches every executive agency is a lot of money.

No, it is you who's moving goal posts. Or rather, you're comparing apples to oranges. You have to compare activists with activists, campaign rhetoric with campaign rhetoric and actual votes to actual votes. The Bernie platform or the economic parts of the BLM agenda were embraced by the mainstream of the Democratic party to a much higher degree than the demands of Occupy Wall Street ever were. Congressional Dems have given up entirely on fiscal responsibility and push for one excessive spending package after the other. They are wiling to go much further on healthcare than they were in 2009-2010, although they had much larger majorities and a much stronger mandate back then.

3.5T over 10 years is still 350B per year. That's more than $1000 per American per year in additional government spending. Relative to a GDP per capita of around $69k per year, I'd consider that a lot. ;)

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Aug 17 2022 02:18pm
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Aug 17 2022 02:23pm
Quote (Surfpunk @ 17 Aug 2022 22:06)
Cheney voted with TFG 93%, but sure...she's a "rabid anti-Trumper"

FOH.gif


And Rand Paul only voted with Trump 68%, he's still a supporter and ally of him. Which goes to show that this is not a straightforward metric.

1. One can be critical of Trump while supporting most of his policies.
2. Cheney had indeed had multiple public disagreements with Trump even before the 2020 election.
3. We were talking about the time when Pelosi selected the members of the Jan 6 committee. By that point, Cheney had indeed become a "rabid anti-Trumper".

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Aug 17 2022 02:23pm
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Aug 17 2022 02:32pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Aug 17 2022 01:10pm)
Hold on, we were discussing Cheney, not McCarthy or the committee. I know that McCarthy miscalculated when he blew up Pelosi's original proposal for a somewhat balanced, bipartisan committee. But once that ship had sailed, it was clear that the commitee would be a partisan show trial, and Cheney is responsible for making herself available for this charade.


No, it is you who's moving goal posts. Or rather, you're comparing apples to oranges. You have to compare activists with activists, campaign rhetoric with campaign rhetoric and actual votes to actual votes. The Bernie platform or the economic parts of the BLM agenda were embraced by the mainstream of the Democratic party to a much higher degree than the demands of Occupy Wall Street ever were. Congressional Dems have given up entirely on fiscal responsibility and push for one excessive spending package after the other. They are wiling to go much further on healthcare than they were in 2009-2010, although they had much larger majorities and a much stronger mandate back then.

3.5T over 10 years is still 350B per year. That's more than $1000 per American per year in additional government spending. Relative to a GDP per capita of around $64k per year, I'd consider that a lot. ;)


Yea, a partisan show trial with all those Republican witnesses is a charade. :rofl:
Sorry bud, but the testimony speaks for itself. The only people who deny the evidence are the cultists. Again, I understand WHY you want to be dismissive and bury your head in the sand but it would probably be better to just not comment :)

I'm very curious what the "economic parts of the BLM agenda" are that were "embraced by the mainstream of the Democratic party." It seems to me that moderate Democrats HATE being tied to such an organization and Democrats have made a substantial effort to suppress that kind of rhetoric. How is it fiscally irresponsible to increase taxes so that you don't increase the deficit? I'm really confused on your logic there. You're not wrong that someone like AOC supports those policies but Congressional Democrats as a whole understand that bills need to be "deficit neutral" in order to get passed the Senate (unless they can get GOP support).

I can understand why you think 350B is a lot of money when you live in a country with a small GDP. However, that increase in spending is less than a 10% increase and would have been life changing to a lot of Americans.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Aug 17 2022 01:23pm)
And Rand Paul only voted with Trump 68%, he's still a supporter and ally of him. Which goes to show that this is not a straightforward metric.

1. One can be critical of Trump while supporting most of his policies.
2. Cheney had indeed had multiple public disagreements with Trump even before the 2020 election.
3. We were talking about the time when Pelosi selected the members of the Jan 6 committee. By that point, Cheney had indeed become a "rabid anti-Trumper".


You and I both know that there is only one metric that matters :)

This post was edited by thundercock on Aug 17 2022 02:33pm
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Aug 17 2022 02:34pm
Where can I find a complete list of candidates? anyone know?
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Aug 22 2022 08:46pm
https://decisiondeskhq.com/wyoming-democrats-tried-to-save-liz-cheney/

all 25 democrats in Wyoming attempted to save Lizzy Cheney in the primaries, kekw
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