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Poll > Are You For A "national Divorce" Of The Usa?
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Jan 3 2022 05:52pm
Quote (Goomshill @ 3 Jan 2022 22:58)
No, the models aren't uncertain based on human action. Again, this is something I've been steeped in for decades. The models are wildly divergent because of how much uncertainty exists over the dynamics of climatology. They can make varying assumptions about CO2 emissions and produce ranges based on that, but even without those inputs, the models are still very different. Some are doomsday scenarios, some are rosy. There was never any sort of authoritative model that anyone could point to as "This is how much the temperature will rise given input conditions" or "This is how much future flooding will increase". Instead there were probabilistic estimates using the best fits of a plethora of different models. When the USACE used models to predict PMP/PMF for future weather systems to adjust the 100-year flood guess for a river system, it didn't plug numbers into one model, it modeled all the models and took the middle.

And again, there were so many models of such divergent prediction that there's no accuracy to saying "They underestimated" or "They overestimated" the impacts. Its somewhere between misleading and meaningless. If you have a room of 100 people and ask them how many marbles are in a jar, and each person gives a different answer, can you say "They overestimated"? Maybe if you take the average of each person's guess, but what if one person says 10 billion and another few guess it on the nose? Will you remove outliers or look at median? Those are exactly the sort of questions that civil engineers and climatologists have been working on for decades when it came to climate modeling, because of all that uncertainty in the models. But as I stress, the models almost all converge on simple obvious trends like "we're getting warmer over time" and "probable maximum flood events have a higher maximum cap"

Here's an example of what it looks like when 44 different models are mapped against historic data;

https://i.imgur.com/zJDOhGs.png

Climate change deniers just love to look at how 'most' models overestimated how much global warming there would be in the past 20 years, but several models can explain that as a temporary cyclical cool period that might precede a sudden rapid increase as the lag catches up to us (as the data since 2015 might indicate). Some might predict its just a lower gradient than the other models. But they all agree its going up, and it did. There's a reasonable debate to have about what % of global warming is actually anthropogenic vs natural, if there are diminishing return factors or feedbacks not being accounted for, and whether there are unknown novel variables not understood. That one oddball guy even had a model theorizing sun magnetosphere cycles and cloud formation by cosmic ray seeding being able to account for a small % of variation. Was there anything true about it? Fuck if I know, but I know there's something wrong with science if you can't even suggest that theories might be flawed or incomplete when the observable evidence doesn't agree with them.


did you draw all thеse lines yourself during an ink fury crisis ?

This post was edited by Saucisson6000 on Jan 3 2022 06:07pm
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Jan 3 2022 05:52pm
Quote (sirthom @ Jan 3 2022 06:45pm)
So what, it's ok to dance all around it so long as you don't say the magic word?

A rose by any other name, is still a rose.
Is it not?


I don't understand people. Maybe I'm special. But is his reply just gaslighting?
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Jan 3 2022 06:00pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Jan 3 2022 06:32pm)
I might be wrong on that, I just saw he was associated with a bunch of think tanks that are associated with young earth creationist groups, and his arguments and "research" is used all the time on young earth creationist websites. Easy mistake to make. Lie with dogs, wake up with fleas.

Specifically he's part of "Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation" which has been accused of being just a front for fossil fuel interests (cuz it is).

Regardless, even I'm wrong, you didn't address the actual meat of the issue. You posted a source that cherry picked the models that looked worse. So either you haven't been steeped in this for years or you would know that, or you're just a dishonest hack. (you're the latter, just so everybody else knows)

If you're going to post a graph post it from a peer reviewed journal with the source.



Attacking the merits of the evidence are a totally legitimate way to attack an argument. If your evidence is garbage so is your argument lol.


Yes attacking the merits of an argument. But you should leave it at that. Not with the little quips about him. Don't try to cloud my judgment of someone I'm meeting for the first time. I'll figure him out on my own. Also even I was thinking about the graph ending in 2012. It's become a more prominent issue in the last decade. Man am I bad at conversations. I'm also a bit dumber than I thought. I don't know many words LOL

This post was edited by crackersj on Jan 3 2022 06:01pm
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Jan 3 2022 06:04pm
these "divorce" people crying by how absolutely horrible their 1st world lives are as they are massively oppressed by no one.
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Jan 3 2022 06:11pm
Quote (crackersj @ Jan 3 2022 06:00pm)
Yes attacking the merits of an argument. But you should leave it at that. Not with the little quips about him. Don't try to cloud my judgment of someone I'm meeting for the first time. I'll figure him out on my own. Also even I was thinking about the graph ending in 2012. It's become a more prominent issue in the last decade. Man am I bad at conversations. I'm also a bit dumber than I thought. I don't know many words LOL


If I don't tell you his history I am not giving you the full story. Goom's hackery is legendary even among conservatives here lol

Anyway, if you look at the actual science, and not the cherry picked science Goom is presenting, then you find the warming effects of CO2 are greater than models predict, the ocean temperatures are pretty much in-line, and the northern ice caps are melting at a much higher rate than anticipated.

Global warming being a serious problem and created by humans and being underestimated are pretty unassailable in the scientific literature at this point. Anybody telling you otherwise is not knowledgeable, dishonest, or both.
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Jan 3 2022 06:18pm
Quote (theCrossbones @ 3 Jan 2022 19:04)
these "divorce" people crying by how absolutely horrible their 1st world lives are as they are massively oppressed by no one.


Oppressed by their own thoughts it would seem. But I don't know their full life so I won't pass judgment. I'm no Saint.
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Jan 3 2022 06:18pm
Quote (Saucisson6000 @ Jan 3 2022 05:52pm)
did you draw all thеse lines yourself during an ink fury crisis ?


I still print on the back side of papers with climatology reports and graphs on the other side and tell people to ignore it, reusing old papers. Of course, that's only because of how rarely I use my printer
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Jan 3 2022 06:19pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ 3 Jan 2022 19:11)
If I don't tell you his history I am not giving you the full story. Goom's hackery is legendary even among conservatives here lol

Anyway, if you look at the actual science, and not the cherry picked science Goom is presenting, then you find the warming effects of CO2 are greater than models predict, the ocean temperatures are pretty much in-line, and the northern ice caps are melting at a much higher rate than anticipated.

Global warming being a serious problem and created by humans and being underestimated are pretty unassailable in the scientific literature at this point. Anybody telling you otherwise is not knowledgeable, dishonest, or both.


Who else is conservative here? Does he even identify as conservative? I've only seen 1 topic with a few conservatives in it. All topics in PARD seem to eventually devolve into a flame war. I'm going to try to keep this all civil but I know I'm wasting my finger taps.
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Jan 3 2022 06:22pm
Quote (Goomshill @ 4 Jan 2022 00:18)
I still print on the back side of papers with climatology reports and graphs on the other side and tell people to ignore it, reusing old papers. Of course, that's only because of how rarely I use my printer


I have a strong respect for your efforts but i am very skeptical to your skepticism
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Jan 3 2022 06:29pm
Quote (crackersj @ Jan 3 2022 06:19pm)
Who else is conservative here? Does he even identify as conservative? I've only seen 1 topic with a few conservatives in it. All topics in PARD seem to eventually devolve into a flame war. I'm going to try to keep this all civil but I know I'm wasting my finger taps.


Thor himself, Ink, Saucy and Skinned are some of the resident conservatives, and I'm their king by divine providence. If you see anything posted by Thundercock you know its completely wrong, anything by Santara is untrustworthy, and Torm1 will return in a few months after his trip to Kolob
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