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Oct 16 2020 09:30pm
Quote (krackprophet @ Oct 16 2020 10:25pm)
I mean politicians have decided its optimal to let large corporations write off all their growth as cost to avoid taxes, bailed themselves out twice in 12 years, and decimated our manufacturing base.

There is no objective "optimal" other than the market working itself out.

I'm not saying do nothing. Tariffs/sanctions are useful tools to steer market forces away from adversaries for instance.


The reason we continually have to bail out companies is because we've allowed them to merge to giants and allowed them to over-leverage by removing regulations that prevented them from doing so.

2008 happened because we removed the regulation that made it illegal for banks to use savings account money to make risky investments, and within 10 years they had more risk than assets.

As a world we need to regulate businesses to ensure that fake growth, like what was seen leading up to 2008, doesn't happen. That will result in slower growth in paper, but not in real productivity, and will stop crashes from nearly destroying entire industries.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Oct 16 2020 09:30pm
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Oct 16 2020 09:43pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Oct 16 2020 10:30pm)
The reason we continually have to bail out companies is because we've allowed them to merge to giants and allowed them to over-leverage.

2008 happened because we removed the regulation that made it illegal for banks to use savings account money to make risky investments, and within 10 years they had more risk than assets.

As a world we need to regulate businesses to ensure that fake growth, like what was seen leading up to 2008, doesn't happen. That will result in slower growth in paper, but not in real productivity, and will stop crashes from nearly destroying entire industries.


Or we could not bail them out.

Teach our children how to manage their money and let people take responsibility.

Mandate a simple form that lists practices a financial institution performs with a risk level that must be clearly disclosed.

No tax avoidance/no bailouts ever above a personal level. Maybe put an earnings cap on deductions so small businesses can grow but that's about it.

Regulation should mostly be to avoid strong physical harm or actual theft. Coal waste in fresh water streams for example.
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Oct 16 2020 09:56pm
Quote (krackprophet @ Oct 16 2020 10:43pm)
Or we could not bail them out.
Teach our children how to manage their money and let people take responsibility.
Mandate a simple form that lists practices a financial institution performs with a risk level that must be clearly disclosed.
No tax avoidance/no bailouts ever above a personal level. Maybe put an earnings cap on deductions so small businesses can grow but that's about it.
Regulation should mostly be to avoid strong physical harm or actual theft. Coal waste in fresh water streams for example.


Man I wish the world was as simple as you see it lol
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Oct 16 2020 10:24pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Oct 16 2020 10:56pm)
Man I wish the world was as simple as you see it lol


It actually is if you don't put equity on a pedestal.
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Oct 16 2020 10:31pm
Quote (krackprophet @ Oct 16 2020 11:24pm)
It actually is if you don't put equity on a pedestal.


It very much isn't.

To just scratch the surface, there's certain things that absolutely shouldn't be a market. Healthcare is one because it doesn't have elastic costs, requires 10+ years of training to produce doctors, the cost of getting it wrong is human lives, and the laymen cannot reasonably get the expertise to assess their own treatments.

I'm bringing up healthcare first because if you can't grasp that healthcare doesn't work well as a market, there's no point in continuing.
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Oct 16 2020 10:45pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Oct 16 2020 11:31pm)
It very much isn't.

To just scratch the surface, there's certain things that absolutely shouldn't be a market. Healthcare is one because it doesn't have elastic costs, requires 10+ years of training to produce doctors, the cost of getting it wrong is human lives, and the laymen cannot reasonably get the expertise to assess their own treatments.

I'm bringing up healthcare first because if you can't grasp that healthcare doesn't work well as a market, there's no point in continuing.


Why should healthcare not be a market? Because you put equity on a pedestal as I said. It works fine as a market if you don't.

The only protection that you need is access. If you can pay you can't be denied access that's it.
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Oct 16 2020 10:49pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Oct 16 2020 11:04pm)
The philosophy of Democrats is exactly what you should be doing. Things get bad, stimulus, government jobs, etc. Things get good, raise taxes, build infrastructure with the money, support the people. It slows down growth during the good times and stops the crash during the bad times.

Republicans do the opposite. They lower taxes during the good times to further accelerate growth, then when something bad happens the over-stimulated economy has an even harder crash, and when a crash happens they refuse to spend to alleviate the economic problems.


1) Things get bad : Spend money
Things get good : Tax more and spend the proceeds.
You are missing the part where spending is actually cut.

2) Republicans have never been against stimulus, e.g. Bush/Trump administrations.

3) The question is never whether to spend, but how much and on what.
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Oct 17 2020 08:21am
Quote (Mangix @ Oct 16 2020 09:43pm)
I did not mean it won't have any positive impact, just meant that the$1200 in the short term is far less harmful than what people will experience overall if this guy keeps leading, especially during the next year or however long this virus problem stays around.

Also this seems relevant, just stumbled across it.

https://www.axios.com/stimulus-negotiations-cares-act-before-election-cd826d06-b3e8-4518-b2a2-bfa444361754.html





I'm not sure how reliable their reporting is, never actually looked at their stuff before.

I'm not sure what it signals, either they're okay with leaving Trump out to hang, or they think that makes them look better somehow.


That’s what I was referring to when I said McConnell was going
to shoot it down. Really it’s just a bad look for everyone however pelosi had a chance for positive spin which was badly fumbled
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Oct 17 2020 08:32am
Back in 2008, if governments around the world hadnt stopped the disintegration of the world financial system with their bailouts, half of our pensioners would be sleeping under a bridge today.

Yes, free markets "work" in a strictly economic sense, but the collateral damage they produce is unacceptable in modern societies. And then there is also the problem that unregulated markets tend to devolve into monopolies or oligopolies. Vulgar liberarianism is an outdated ideology, and has been for over a century.
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Oct 17 2020 09:23am
Entire op is a copy&paste haha
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