Quote (thesnipa @ Sep 12 2018 04:33pm)

while the Soviets undoubtedly killed more nazis, and the failed attempt to take Russia ended the nazi campaign, we also took out their main ally (Japan) nearly by ourselves. We covered their retreat paths so they couldn't fall back against the red wave from the east. Were heavily involved in Africa. etc.

This narrative that without the US russia would have beaten the Nazis is a silly one my friend. without the US who knows what would have happened. Tho US and Russia played the two most integral roles in defeating the Nazis, Russia likely played a slightly larger roll. But all of Russia's success is in part due to the US's actions elsewhere. Just as the US's successes are due in part to Russia's actions elsewhere. A pincer move requires 2 armies, not one.

Quote (Melatonina @ Sep 12 2018 10:02am)

It was well over my friend. It would have just taken a bit more time, but nazis couldnt keep going on war anymore because of their lack of workers.
Concentration camps were first workers camp, because when all the economy goes for war you always needs more workers. Typhus disease as ex. took off a great part of the workers.
So it was just a question of time before they couldnt sustain the war.
And to be even more accurate with long-term history, no one defeated france. germans, england and many others tried for 15 centuries but in the end they lost the war.
if you remember "la guerre de cent ans" against england you can see an army can work as a pincer haha. at that time france was cut into pieces and lost almost 3/4 of its land before they standed up as one man and repels invaders.

Quote (thundercock @ Sep 11 2018 11:16pm)

I had no idea that Surfpunk and Santara were brothers.

Quote (thesnipa @ Sep 12 2018 05:07pm)

i think it would have been possible for Hitler to at least pull out a stalemate armistice without his foolish campaign into Russia. And without the US involved Russia may have chosen to throw in with Germany rather than fight them openly. You simply can't change one thing as big as the US being involved and expect pretty much anything to play out the same. It's like a time travel sci fi movie, change one thing and every thing changes when u get back to the future.

Not sure what you mean about France in WW2 tho, Hitler cracked that wall like an egg shell and waltzed into Paris. I'm not so sure the Russians would have come to your defense for years after we did, and the Brits sure wouldn't have invaded without the US.

Quote (Melatonina @ Sep 12 2018 11:26am)

My grand-parents moved from Belgium to south of France in 1940, they came back 8 months later.
Not all the France was occupied by nazis but only a small part of it. Alsace, north, etc.
U.SS debarquement is 6 June, 1944... So yeah, we didnt waited americans to take back the country.

As another exemple,
"The liberation of Corsica is the fruit of a campaign launched by the French Army, at the initiative of General Henri Giraud, then co-president of the CFLN, against the unfavorable opinion of General de Gaulle who wanted to wait for aid from the Allies."

I dare you to go in Corsica and tell them that they dont speak german because of the u.s. you might not come back home :p

Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Sep 12 2018 05:28pm)

You don't speak German because of US/UK/Soviet Union and that's a fact.

Quote (Melatonina @ Sep 12 2018 10:26am)

My grand-parents moved from Belgium to south of France in 1940, they came back 8 months later.
Not all the France was occupied by nazis but only a small part of it. Alsace, north, etc.
U.SS debarquement is 6 June, 1944... So yeah, we didnt waited americans to take back the country.

As another exemple,
"The liberation of Corsica is the fruit of a campaign launched by the French Army, at the initiative of General Henri Giraud, then co-president of the CFLN, against the unfavorable opinion of General de Gaulle who wanted to wait for aid from the Allies."

I dare you to go in Corsica and tell them that they dont speak german because of the u.s. you might not come back home :p

History is written by winners and that is another perfect exemple of the propaganda americans receive since school. ofc its just natural and intuitiv, they aint gonna say something else.

Quote (thesnipa @ Sep 12 2018 05:39pm)

france played a much larger role in their own liberation than most people think. that doesn't change the facts that we ran Hitler out of large parts of France. Or that he didn't ever look back and launch a counter offensive because were remained in the places we liberated to prevent it.

but answer me this, without the US/UK invasion would those untaken locations have remained untaken? France didn't have the best internal military defenses, although the people did mount a good militia defense.

Quote (Melatonina @ Sep 12 2018 10:48am)

Thanks for admitting it.
France roads are 500.000 kilometers in total, it was nowhere near possible to occupy every road and every village there. France is not luxembourg.
CGT stoppage followed by policers also helped the insurrection growing and eventually taking back some lands.
I still think it would have remained untaken yes, simply because they didnt have enough men to controle everything. The number of free workers largely decreased and then the collapse was just a matter of time.

Quote (thesnipa @ Sep 12 2018 05:53pm)

Instead they made a pretty clean entry and a pretty clean exit.