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Jul 19 2015 02:44pm
Quote (kyle_lowry2 @ Jul 19 2015 03:28pm)
Iran is an enemy to USA. Need I remind you what they chant every week concerning your country?



not a reason to starve the whole population to death lol

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Jul 19 2015 03:01pm
Quote (kyle_lowry2 @ Jul 19 2015 01:22pm)
We need Trump to starve Iran to death


No thanks Hitler.
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Jul 21 2015 02:50am
Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ Jul 14 2015 03:46pm)
...I'm going to put this alleged deal in perspective for you . Iran is an Islamic theocracy that as a part of their religious belief system accepts and promotes that lying to infidels is acceptable as a part of their military strategy . Mohammad taught that war is about deceit so keep this in mind when they start handing out the Nobel Peace Prizes for this farce .


No such religious passages exist in Islam, Muslims are only permitted to lie to avoid significant danger or persecution. Though you are always free to provide the proof to show otherwise

Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ Jul 14 2015 03:58pm)
...they will cheat , they always cheat , they've been doing it for decades . We are trusting the scorpion to not sting us as we ferry it across the river on our back . When they finally plunge the stinger into us we will again be reminded with whom we are dealing .


Iran hasn't invaded another country in over 200 years, who are they going to "sting" now?.. The US on the other hand invaded Iran, uninstalled an elected leader, and reinstalled a monarch

This post was edited by TCassa89 on Jul 21 2015 02:51am
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Jul 21 2015 03:53am
Quote (TCassa89 @ Jul 21 2015 03:50am)
No such religious passages exist in Islam, Muslims are only permitted to lie to avoid significant danger or persecution. Though you are always free to provide the proof to show otherwise



Iran hasn't invaded another country in over 200 years, who are they going to "sting" now?.. The US on the other hand invaded Iran, uninstalled an elected leader, and reinstalled a monarch


Except that time they invaded Iraq for 6 years, killed 1/4 million Iraq's and set all their oil wells on fire. But besides that....

This post was edited by card_sultan on Jul 21 2015 03:56am
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Jul 21 2015 04:10am
Quote (TCassa89 @ Jul 21 2015 08:50am)
No such religious passages exist in Islam, Muslims are only permitted to lie to avoid significant danger or persecution. Though you are always free to provide the proof to show otherwise


It's a religion founded, forged, and facilitated through war, subjugation, and assimilation. Say what you want about the bullshit of Christianity, but the Muslim religion never had its reformation like Christianity did.

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Jul 21 2015 04:30am
Quote (TCassa89 @ Jul 21 2015 03:50am)
No such religious passages exist in Islam, Muslims are only permitted to lie to avoid significant danger or persecution. Though you are always free to provide the proof to show otherwise


Summary Answer:
Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."

There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.



The Qur'an:
Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, though they should not feel that way..

Qur'an (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.



From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).

Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."

Muslim (32:6303) - "...he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."

Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.

From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression...

"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie.



Additional Notes:

Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. The two forms are:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true.

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

Though not called Taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later, and some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed.

Another example of lying is when Muhammad used deception to trick his personal enemies into letting down their guard and exposing themselves to slaughter by pretending to seek peace. This happened in the case of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf (as previously noted) and again later against Usayr ibn Zarim, a surviving leader of the Banu Nadir tribe, which had been evicted from their home in Medina by the Muslims.
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Jul 21 2015 05:29am
Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ Jul 15 2015 05:04am)
...actually they are trying to purchase ICBM technology from Russia ; they will eventually have the capability to strike anywhere .


so lets fuck over tens of millions of people because they are "trying" and "eventually" could bla bla bla.... very mature and christian from you :thumbsup:

Quote (kyle_lowry2 @ Jul 19 2015 09:28pm)
Iran is an enemy to USA. Need I remind you what they chant every week concerning your country?


and what makes it different from all the zionists in your land chanting "death to all arabs" every few days?


filthy hypocrites....
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Jul 21 2015 06:34am
This post is a violation of the site rules and appropriate action was taken.

Quote (rimtutitukee @ Jul 21 2015 07:29am)
so lets fuck over tens of millions of people because they are "trying" and "eventually" could bla bla bla.... very mature and christian from you :thumbsup:



and what makes it different from all the zionists in your land chanting "death to all arabs" every few days?


filthy hypocrites....



Yea go make up more lies you idiot antisemitic european.
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Jul 21 2015 08:24am
Quote (kyle_lowry2 @ 19 Jul 2015 13:22)
We need Trump to starve Iran to death


Quote (kyle_lowry2 @ 19 Jul 2015 14:28)
Iran is an enemy to USA. Need I remind you what they chant every week concerning your country?


Quote (kyle_lowry2 @ 21 Jul 2015 07:34)
Yea go make up more lies you idiot antisemitic european.


Because you are just a pragmatic peaceful representative of the Jews amirite?
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Jul 21 2015 04:33pm
Quote (card_sultan @ Jul 21 2015 03:30am)
Summary Answer:
Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."

There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.



The Qur'an:
Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, though they should not feel that way..

Qur'an (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.



From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).

Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."

Muslim (32:6303) - "...he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."

Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.

From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression...

"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie.



Additional Notes:

Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. The two forms are:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true.

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

Though not called Taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later, and some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed.

Another example of lying is when Muhammad used deception to trick his personal enemies into letting down their guard and exposing themselves to slaughter by pretending to seek peace. This happened in the case of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf (as previously noted) and again later against Usayr ibn Zarim, a surviving leader of the Banu Nadir tribe, which had been evicted from their home in Medina by the Muslims.


you didn't provide any quotes from the Quran, you provided interpretations, but more importantly you did not provide the source behind those interpretations


furthermore, we're at war with Iran? if that be the case, then you should probably read the rules of Jihad


The opponent must always have started the fighting.
It must not be fought to gain territory.
It must be launched by a religious leader.
It must be fought to bring about good - something that Allah will approve of.
Every other way of solving the problem must be tried before resorting to war.
Innocent people should not be killed.
Women, children, or old people should not be killed or hurt.
Women must not be raped.
Enemies must be treated with justice.
Wounded enemy soldiers must be treated in exactly the same way as one's own soldiers.
The war must stop as soon as the enemy asks for peace.
Property must not be damaged.
Poisoning wells is forbidden. The modern analogy would be chemical or biological warfare.


Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
Qur'an 4:90

But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
Qur'an 8:61


http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/jihad_1.shtml


I also noticed you mentioning "taqiya" as religious passage for Muslims to lie to non Muslims... but again, that is ONLY if there is a significant risk of persecution


"In Shi'a Islam, taqiya (تقیة taqiyyah/taqīyah) is a form of religious lie,[1] or a legal dispensation whereby a believing individual can deny his faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts, specially while they are in fear or at risk of significant persecution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

all you had to do was read the very first paragraph on what Taqiya is.. goes to show how far your research goes

This post was edited by TCassa89 on Jul 21 2015 04:54pm
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