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#71
Oct 6 2023 01:28pm
Quote (Meanwhile @ 6 Oct 2023 21:22)
Russian police state was in Ukraine since decades, they deeply infected the whole place and trying to argue about a "coup in 2014" is... Pathetic.
Honestly I want Ukraine to be free, along with Russia. And I want a free Russia to join the EU block like Germany joined the coal & steel community in 1952.

Personal attacks won't save you. I am "removing" nobody and I don't have anyone "in my pocket(s)"; on the contrary. Watch out how i got warned when i posted about abortion problem.

But...I guess moderators aren't that stupid and at some point malicious posters can't "play with the rules" anymore. This is the other side of the coin.


They don't seem to mind you posting drone strikes, decapitations and gore so there is that.
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#72
Oct 6 2023 01:30pm
Quote (Malopox @ Oct 6 2023 02:25pm)
Sure, two last freebies for the evening. But you really have to get up to speed buddy.

A classical paper is written by John J. Mearsheimer - Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West's Fault: The Liberal Delusions That Provoked Putin in the aftermath of 2014 events. It is accessible on JSTOR with a free account https://www.jstor.org/stable/24483306?read-now=1&seq=2#page_scan_tab_contents. There is also a youtube lecture of the same guy with the same title. Some people might discount him as Putin-apologist (to which I don't agree as his body of work outside of Russia/Ukraine conflict speaks for himself).

Another great piece is body of work available before 2014 revolution hinting that certain western governments were overly invested in promotion of NGOs to establish a society and steer elections to where they wanted the outcome. Here is an article from 2008 on the results of Orange revolution and criticism as to why it failed.
https://commonweb.unifr.ch/artsdean/pub/gestens/f/as/files/4760/39746_174023.pdf
https://i.imgur.com/HhU1nfB.png

There is also a highly suspicious recording of Victoria Nuland with US Ambassador of Ukraine in 2014 being circulated where they go over who will be running the "new and democratic government". Since everyone they mentioned got their positions - it seems quite strange as to what influence these two had on democratic processes of a sovereign country.


So do you think that the USA promoting a specific direction for Ukraine justifies a Russian invasion?

So according to this, the USA invested in pushing Ukraine in a direction towards the west. I have a hard to believing that would justify an invasion, so I'm interested in why you think it would.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Oct 6 2023 01:31pm
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#73
Oct 6 2023 01:37pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ 7 Oct 2023 03:30)
So do you think that the USA promoting a specific direction for Ukraine justifies a Russian invasion?

So according to this, the USA invested in pushing Ukraine in a direction towards the west. I have a hard to believing that would justify an invasion, so I'm interested in why you think it would.


The answer is Yes. If the Chinese decides to do something funny in Solomon Islands , the USA will probably do something similar. It will threaten the security and freedom of navigation of United States and her Allies.



This post was edited by Hamsterbaby on Oct 6 2023 01:38pm
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#74
Oct 6 2023 01:38pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ 6 Oct 2023 21:30)
So do you think that the USA promoting a specific direction for Ukraine justifies a Russian invasion?

So according to this, the USA invested in pushing Ukraine in a direction towards the west. I have a hard to believing that would justify an invasion, so I'm interested in why you think it would.


Are you ok with USA promoting a specific direction and supplying training that supported a violent change of a democratically elected government?

I think ultimately Ukraine would have slowly drifted towards the Western values as would Russia through natural evolution of civil societies as people accumulate wealth and seek to protect it for their offspring through stable institutions. There was absolutely no need to accelerate these events and antagonize people.

This post was edited by Malopox on Oct 6 2023 01:39pm
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#75
Oct 6 2023 01:45pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ 6 Oct 2023 21:13)
I see him down there. I'm looking forward to him coming back with a well sourced list of American interference in Ukraine in 2014.


FYI welcome aboard the eastern tyranny

The best they can do is quote this guy who ended up in Judge Napolitano's show, John J. Mearsheimer, from the "offensive realism" school. Ex-cold war expert. Partly obsolete now because of globalization.
John J. Mearsheimer has been since largely criticized; btw, "no one can smile more than John J. Mearsheimer when he's talking about a disaster."
The U.S. messed up in their (lack of) support to the ex-USSR in the 90's and 00's and acting with arrogance, but after that, the real reason for the mess of the last 20 years is the new Russian central power, which finally refused to join the West for the simple reason they didn't want to lose their privileges (bypassing laws, monopolies, and almost mafia) in a western-style democracy.

Quote (Malopox @ 6 Oct 2023 21:28)
They don't seem to mind you posting drone strikes, decapitations and gore so there is that.


Never posted this. Btw this reminds me when I had a warn years ago for posting a dead palestinian child (from far away).

This post was edited by Meanwhile on Oct 6 2023 01:53pm
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#76
Oct 6 2023 01:46pm
Quote (Malopox @ Oct 6 2023 02:38pm)
Are you ok with USA promoting a specific direction and supplying training that supported a violent change of a democratically elected government?

I think ultimately Ukraine would have slowly drifted towards the Western values as would Russia through natural evolution of civil societies as people accumulate wealth and seek to protect it for their offspring through stable institutions. There was absolutely no need to accelerate these events and antagonize people.


Can you cite the bolded? Above you said your sources were establishing NGOs to steer elections. Not violently overthrow the government. There's a big gap between those things unless we have evidence.

And if we had, it seems weird that the "violent overthrow of the government" would happen after parliment voted 100% to remove the president, and the president had violently cracked down on protesters.
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#77
Oct 6 2023 01:59pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ 6 Oct 2023 21:46)
Can you cite the bolded? Above you said your sources were establishing NGOs to steer elections. Not violently overthrow the government. There's a big gap between those things unless we have evidence.

And if we had, it seems weird that the "violent overthrow of the government" would happen after parliment voted 100% to remove the president, and the president had violently cracked down on protesters.


Sure. Do you think McCain only came to shake hands and take pictures?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/john-mccain-ukraine-protests-support-just-cause

How big do you think the outrage would be if during 6th of January 2020, Russian MP Medvedev or a Chinese ambassador would be standing among the protestors "supporting" their cause?

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#78
Oct 6 2023 02:01pm
Quote (Malopox @ Oct 6 2023 02:59pm)
Sure. Do you think McCain only came to shake hands and take pictures?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/john-mccain-ukraine-protests-support-just-cause

How big do you think the outrage would be if during 6th of January 2020, Russian MP Medvedev or a Chinese ambassador would be standing among the protestors "supporting" their cause?


McCaine coming to shake hands is not evidence of any kind of preparation for violent overthrow of the government. This is what I would say is "cheerleading" as I referenced above. Yeah it's a show of support, but it is in no way evidence of preparing anybody in the country for a violent overthrow.

Do you have anything better?

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Oct 6 2023 02:03pm
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#79
Oct 6 2023 02:07pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ 6 Oct 2023 22:01)
McCaine coming to shake hands is not evidence of any kind of preparation for violent overthrow of the government. This is what I would say is "cheerleading" as I referenced above. Yeah it's a show of support, but it is in no way evidence of preparing anybody in the country for a violent overthrow.

Do you have anything better?


A standing elected official of a foreign government was in the midst of an antigovernmental protest shaking hands and encouraging far right activists (Svoboda) that coincidentally ended up taking down the government. You are OK with that? Nothing to see here officer, move along?

This post was edited by Malopox on Oct 6 2023 02:07pm
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#80
Oct 6 2023 02:11pm
Quote (Malopox @ Oct 6 2023 03:07pm)
A standing elected official of a foreign government was in the midst of an antigovernmental protest shaking hands and encouraging far right activists (Svoboda) that coincidentally ended up taking down the government. You are OK with that? Nothing to see here officer, move along?


I think it makes sense for us to have somebody there encouraging the protestors. The protestors were against a Russian aligned official.

That does not mean we were supplying weapons or training or anything like that unless you have direct evidence of us doing that.

I've seen this posted before. I just thought you had something better, because this is weak sauce.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Oct 6 2023 02:13pm
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