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May 22 2023 09:36pm
Quote (WizardKiller @ May 23 2023 05:34am)
Psalms 139:13-16 David speaks of himself as a living being separate and apart from his mother during his mother's pregnancy - "I" and "me". David speaks of his personage while "unformed". The "blob of cells" or "tissue" that pro-abortionists say are not human is affirmed as human by God through inspiration of His servant David.
Exodus 21:22-25 "Woman with child" affirms that before birth the fetus is a child separate and apart from the mother. Verse 23 states that, according to Old Testament Law, if a child is born prematurely and dies due to harm inflicted upon the child's mother, then the penalty for murder is imposed upon the individual causing harm to the woman. Do you think this would include an abortionist if we were living under the Old Testament Law?
Psalms 51:5 The fetus is an individual separate from his mother at conception. The living person ("I"/"me") existed upon conception. The woman's "choice" is whether or not to have intercourse. Once a woman has conceived, God views the life of the unborn as precious and valuable as those already born.
Ecclesiastes 11:5 This passage affirms that the fetus is a child, separate and apart from the mother. Today, man still does not know how or when the soul enters the fetus, but God affirms that a fetus is as much a child at conception as after birth. Therefore, we must believe that the soul enters a fetus/child at conception.
Job 3:13-16 Job considered himself to be a living human being apart from any other human while in the womb.
Luke 1:15 John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while in the womb; therefore, John was a living person while in the womb. A mass of tissue could not be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Luke 1:41, 44 The babe leaped in her womb for joy. A baby in the womb can leap for joy - a mass of tissue cannot leap. If a mass of tissue could leap in the womb, it could leap outside of the womb. Have you seen a mass of tissue leap?
Matt. 1:23 Mary, while pregnant with Jesus, is said to have a child before birth.
Matt. 2:1 "Now after Jesus was born" considers that Jesus was Jesus before birth, while still in Mary's womb.

Another thought-provoking article about this subject: https://www.focusonthefamily.com/pro-life/what-the-bible-says-about-the-beginning-of-life/


Exodus 21:22-25 "Woman with child" affirms that before birth the fetus is a child separate and apart from the mother. Verse 23 states that, according to Old Testament Law, if a child is born prematurely and dies due to harm inflicted upon the child's mother, then the penalty for murder is imposed upon the individual causing harm to the woman. Do you think this would include an abortionist if we were living under the Old Testament Law?

Hi this is a great question i will be happy to answer..
Under old testament they use an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth..
The punishment for murdering a woman in exodus is death.
The punishment for making her miscarry is a fine.
Exodus does NOT see the fetus as a person.

Numbers ALSO gives direct instructions on WHEN to abort and HOW to do so..
How come you missed this in your write up?

11 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,

12 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘If any man’s wife agoes astray and is unfaithful to him,

13 and a man has aintercourse with her and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband and she is 1undetected, although she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act,

14 1if a spirit of ajealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has defiled herself, or if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has not defiled herself,

15 the man shall then bring his wife to the priest, and shall bring as 1an offering for her one-tenth of an 2ephah of barley meal; he shall not pour oil on it nor put frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of memorial, aa reminder of iniquity.

16 ‘Then the priest shall bring her near and have her stand before the Lord,

17 and the priest shall take holy water in an earthenware vessel; and 1he shall take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water.

18 ‘The priest shall then have the woman stand before the Lord and let the hair of the woman’s head go loose, and place the grain offering of memorial 1in her hands, which is the grain offering of jealousy, and in the hand of the priest is to be the water of bitterness that brings a curse.

19 ‘The priest shall have her take an oath and shall say to the woman, “If no man has lain with you and if you have not agone astray into uncleanness, being under the authority of your husband, be 1immune to this water of bitterness that brings a curse;

20 if you, however, have agone astray, being under the authority of your husband, and if you have defiled yourself and a man other than your husband has had intercourse with you”

21 (then the priest shall have the woman aswear with the oath of the curse, and the priest shall say to the woman), “the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people by the Lord’s making your thigh 1waste away and your abdomen swell;

22 and this water that brings a curse shall go into your 1stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh 2waste away.” And the woman ashall say, “Amen. Amen.”

23 ‘The priest shall then write these curses on a scroll, and he shall 1wash them off into the water of bitterness.

24 ‘Then he shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings a curse, so that the water which brings a curse will go into her 1and cause bitterness.

25 ‘The priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy from the woman’s hand, and he shall wave the grain offering before the Lord and bring it to the altar;

26 and athe priest shall take a handful of the grain offering as its memorial offering and offer it up in smoke on the altar, and afterward he shall make the woman drink the water.

27 ‘When he has made her drink the water, then it shall come about, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, that the water which brings a curse will go into her 1and cause bitterness, and her abdomen will swell and her thigh will 2waste away, and the woman will become aa curse among her people.

28 ‘But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, she will then be free and conceive 1children.

29 ‘This is the law of jealousy: when a wife, being under the authority of her husband, agoes astray and defiles herself,

30 or when a spirit of jealousy comes over a man and he is jealous of his wife, he shall then make the woman stand before the Lord, and the priest shall apply all this law to her.

31 ‘Moreover, the man will be free from 1guilt, but that woman shall abear her 1guilt.’ ”


This is straight from the bible, if you tell me this is not direct support for abortion i am going to strongly disagree.
Also, abortion was in common use in those times and you are telling me a book that strongly condemns it never mentions it once (aside from this direction to do it) when they literally have pages about what shellfish and birds you are allowed to eat?
Never owls btw, bible is VERY clear on never eating owls.

This post was edited by Plaguefear on May 22 2023 09:44pm
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May 22 2023 09:57pm
Quote (Plaguefear @ May 22 2023 09:36pm)
Exodus 21:22-25 "Woman with child" affirms that before birth the fetus is a child separate and apart from the mother. Verse 23 states that, according to Old Testament Law, if a child is born prematurely and dies due to harm inflicted upon the child's mother, then the penalty for murder is imposed upon the individual causing harm to the woman. Do you think this would include an abortionist if we were living under the Old Testament Law?

Hi this is a great question i will be happy to answer..
Under old testament they use an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth..
The punishment for murdering a woman in exodus is death.
The punishment for making her miscarry is a fine.
Exodus does NOT see the fetus as a person.

Exodus ALSO gives direct instructions on WHEN to abort and HOW to do so..
How come you missed this in your write up?


False.
https://abort73.com/abortion/exodus_2122_25/

There is also a difference between miscarriage and abortion, obviously.
https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/37/37-2/JETS_37-2_169-184_Fuller.pdf

Those verses from Numbers do not condone nor instruct abortion. It is a ritual to expose guilt.
https://answersingenesis.org/sanctity-of-life/numbers-5-and-abortion/

This post was edited by WizardKiller on May 22 2023 10:06pm
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May 22 2023 10:24pm
Quote (WizardKiller @ May 22 2023 10:57pm)
False.
https://abort73.com/abortion/exodus_2122_25/

There is also a difference between miscarriage and abortion, obviously.
https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/37/37-2/JETS_37-2_169-184_Fuller.pdf

Those verses from Numbers do not condone nor instruct abortion. It is a ritual to expose guilt.
https://answersingenesis.org/sanctity-of-life/numbers-5-and-abortion/


The passage is unambiguously about abortion. Answers in genesis tries to paint it as "totally not a miscarriage but a disfigurement" even though the word used is used elsewhere to mean womb and the passage specifically calls out for the process to be done to a pregnant woman.

It's just dishonest. Exodus unambiguously calls for a ritual that will induce abortion if the fetus was conceived unfaithfully.


The reason is pretty simple. In old Jewish belief, you don't have a soul until your first breath. They literally thought that breath was your life back then, which is why the dead stopped breathing.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on May 22 2023 10:25pm
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May 22 2023 10:25pm
Quote (Plaguefear @ May 21 2023 11:05pm)
Where does the idea that life begins at conception come from, and where does the idea that life is sacred come from?


how are those specific christian questions?

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May 22 2023 10:27pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ May 22 2023 09:24pm)
The passage is unambiguously about abortion. Answers in genesis tries to paint it as "totally not a miscarriage but a disfigurement" even though the word used is used elsewhere to mean womb and the passage specifically calls out for the process to be done to a pregnant woman.

It's just dishonest. Exodus unambiguously calls for a ritual that will induce abortion if the fetus was conceived unfaithfully.


if you read the actual scripture the woman would be drinking ashes and water and that causes 'abortion? c'mon man.......
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May 22 2023 10:32pm
Quote (TiStuff @ May 22 2023 11:27pm)
if you read the actual scripture the woman would be drinking ashes and water and that causes 'abortion? c'mon man.......


Not my fault the claims in the bible are incredibly stupid. Take that up with whatever god you think keeps it around.
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May 22 2023 10:34pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ May 22 2023 09:32pm)
Not my fault the claims in the bible are incredibly stupid. Take that up with whatever god you think keeps it around.


hAHAHA u think ashes and water cause abortion and been strutting around about it


This post was edited by TiStuff on May 22 2023 10:38pm
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May 22 2023 10:43pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ May 22 2023 10:24pm)
The passage is unambiguously about abortion. Answers in genesis tries to paint it as "totally not a miscarriage but a disfigurement" even though the word used is used elsewhere to mean womb and the passage specifically calls out for the process to be done to a pregnant woman.

It's just dishonest. Exodus unambiguously calls for a ritual that will induce abortion if the fetus was conceived unfaithfully.


The reason is pretty simple. In old Jewish belief, you don't have a soul until your first breath. They literally thought that breath was your life back then, which is why the dead stopped breathing.


You are not a scholar of any kind, obviously. The expounding of scripture in the links provided makes much more sense and far outdoes your simpleton arguments. You are an antichrist trying to use something you don’t believe to try and justify something unjust. You’re being ridiculous, to say the least.
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May 22 2023 10:51pm
Quote (WizardKiller @ May 22 2023 11:43pm)
You are not a scholar of any kind, obviously. The expounding of scripture in the links provided makes much more sense and far outdoes your simpleton arguments. You are an antichrist trying to use something you don’t believe to try and justify something unjust. You’re being ridiculous, to say the least.


Bruh, you quoted answers in genesis. You don't get to criticize anybody for not being a scholar, you'll listen to the bottom of the barrel of christian apologetics.

Quote (TiStuff @ May 22 2023 11:34pm)
hAHAHA u think ashes and water cause abortion and been strutting around about it
https://freerangestock.com/sample/140858/laughing-men-pointing-their-finger.-.jpg


I don't, the bible says it explicitly though. I don't believe in the bible because it says stupid shit like ash and dirt from the temple floor will cause a miscarriage.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on May 22 2023 10:51pm
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May 22 2023 11:07pm
Quote (TiStuff @ May 23 2023 02:25pm)
how are those specific christian questions?


I dunno maybe from how i titled the thread Questions for christians maybe?
Quote (WizardKiller @ May 23 2023 02:43pm)
You are not a scholar of any kind, obviously. The expounding of scripture in the links provided makes much more sense and far outdoes your simpleton arguments. You are an antichrist trying to use something you don’t believe to try and justify something unjust. You’re being ridiculous, to say the least.


The bible is supposed to be the word of god handed down for the masses, you do not need to be a scholar to understand it, that kind of nonsense just allows fake christians to make fake interpretations.
Like how you all say the bible says that being gay is against gods teachings but it actually condones pedestry, but you all literally ignore the actual translation.

This post was edited by Plaguefear on May 22 2023 11:12pm
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