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#691
Jan 12 2020 05:15pm
Quote (bogie160 @ 12 Jan 2020 23:52)
Except that Russian and Chinese foreign policy towards Iran is entirely dictated by those same material and strategic concerns. Germany refuses to address Russian aggression for fear of losing gas. The EU refuses to confront genocide in China lest the CCP deny them access to Chinese markets.



Does the oil belong to a handful of fundamentalist clerics? Saddam? The United States isn't taking the oil by force, although there would certainly be precedent, it's paying the market price. But if Iranian greed threatens American interests (forget the global economy), then the United States absolutely has the right to intervene.

If you can't stand it, lobby the German government to take a stand. But I have no doubt that German outrage lasts about as long as it takes to impact your wallet.



Since 2003 US killed a million of iraqis civilians and provoked the rise of ISIS, Syrian war, which killed hundreds of thousands, even in EU.

Keep up the good work ? No.

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#692
Jan 12 2020 05:25pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jan 11 2020 07:47pm)
wrong. we will not get what we want via negotiations anymore, no matter how much we'd be willing to give up.


what's left to stop Iran's nuclear program is military action and black ops. perhaps cyberattacks. and also destabilizing the regime with sanctions and doing anything that increases their country's internal divisions and tensions. which are playing out nicely at the moment. I just wish Trump would shut the fuck up instead of publicly siding with the protesters. he doesnt get that him tweeting in support of them actually weakens their position in the context of Iran's internal power struggle. :rolleyes:


Probably not. I was just pointing out that we're in a much worse negotiating position now.

Quote (bogie160 @ Jan 11 2020 09:16pm)
Come on.

There were a myriad of reasons for why Obama shouldn't have made the deal. The Iranian economy was collapsing. Sanctions were being upheld. Domestic unrest was spiraling out of the regime's control. But fine, Obama went ahead under the premise that Iran could be brought back into the international fold as a responsible member of that community. It's not necessarily bad to bet on a promising outcome, but when ballistics testing goes ahead, when Iran doubles down on regional hegemony, infiltrates foreign governments, installs proxies in positions of power, and destabilizes the entire region, it's time to face the music and fold.


Sometimes you need to use the carrot, sometimes the stick. Stuxnet was the stick and it worked really well. Obama (wrongly IMO) tried to strike some weird balance between the Arabs and Persians. Seems like a tremendous waste of diplomatic resources when he should have focused on stabilizing Iraq (ISIS came about under his watch).
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#693
Jan 12 2020 05:32pm
Quote (bogie160 @ 12 Jan 2020 23:52)
Except that Russian and Chinese foreign policy towards Iran is entirely dictated by those same material and strategic concerns. Germany refuses to address Russian aggression for fear of losing gas. The EU refuses to confront genocide in China lest the CCP deny them access to Chinese markets.



Does the oil belong to a handful of fundamentalist clerics? Saddam? The United States isn't taking the oil by force, although there would certainly be precedent, it's paying the market price. But if Iranian greed threatens American interests (forget the global economy), then the United States absolutely has the right to intervene.

If you can't stand it, lobby the German government to take a stand. But I have no doubt that German outrage lasts about as long as it takes to impact your wallet.


you're trying to make two seperate arguments there, buddy. one is your personal opinion, which is directly contradicting the other one, which is international law. YOU feel the US has a right to intervene, but that alone doesn't make it so.

also, if your 'logic' concerning germany was consistent, we would not have taken a strong stance against the invasion of crimea, or russia's killing of former agents in the UK - we did though, another silly excuse debunked. just face it, trump's decision to withdraw from the deal was terrible, and it made america (and the whole world) significantly LESS safe. btw, political scientists, diplomats, former statesmen and leaders who don't have ANY profit motive have all spoken out in favour of the iran deal and against america's unilateral withdrawal - another nail in the coffin of your pathetic excuses, not that common sense and a quick glance at the situation in the middle east couldn't have told you that anyway...
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#694
Jan 12 2020 06:11pm
iran slaughtering its citizens in response to them being upset about iran shooting down a commercial airplane -_-

heinrich and sauceman will, like clockwork, blame trump for this
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#695
Jan 12 2020 06:44pm
Quote (excellence @ Jan 12 2020 07:11pm)
iran slaughtering its citizens in response to them being upset about iran shooting down a commercial airplane -_-

heinrich and sauceman will, like clockwork, blame trump for this


Obviously, they are probably involved in the perpetrating
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#696
Jan 12 2020 06:55pm
Quote (excellence @ 13 Jan 2020 01:11)
iran slaughtering its citizens in response to them being upset about iran shooting down a commercial airplane -_-

heinrich and sauceman will, like clockwork, blame trump for this


No worries, Uncle Pablo will show you (again) where the big scud has to go.

Quote (LA-Leviathan @ 13 Jan 2020 01:44)
Obviously, they are probably involved in the perpetrating


Y sorry had to make a diversion because the hoax was trying to impeach me.

This post was edited by Saucisson6000 on Jan 12 2020 06:55pm
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#697
Jan 12 2020 08:07pm
Quote (LA-Leviathan @ 12 Jan 2020 19:44)
Obviously, they are probably involved in the perpetrating



no kidding, sauceman especially would sell anyone out for a few more francs he can burn some on some poe welfare items
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#698
Jan 12 2020 08:19pm
Quote (excellence @ Jan 12 2020 07:11pm)
iran slaughtering its citizens in response to them being upset about iran shooting down a commercial airplane -_-

heinrich and sauceman will, like clockwork, blame trump for this


no one expects the ayatollah inquisition
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#699
Jan 12 2020 09:22pm
Quote (fender @ Jan 12 2020 06:32pm)
you're trying to make two seperate arguments there, buddy. one is your personal opinion, which is directly contradicting the other one, which is international law. YOU feel the US has a right to intervene, but that alone doesn't make it so.

also, if your 'logic' concerning germany was consistent, we would not have taken a strong stance against the invasion of crimea, or russia's killing of former agents in the UK - we did though, another silly excuse debunked. just face it, trump's decision to withdraw from the deal was terrible, and it made america (and the whole world) significantly LESS safe. btw, political scientists, diplomats, former statesmen and leaders who don't have ANY profit motive have all spoken out in favour of the iran deal and against america's unilateral withdrawal - another nail in the coffin of your pathetic excuses, not that common sense and a quick glance at the situation in the middle east couldn't have told you that anyway...


Perhaps you can help me. Who decides what international law is or isn't? Who enforces it? When we say "that's against the law", it's always an appeal to a higher authority who enforces a social contract or mutual agreement. Who is the higher authority here?

Germany took a moral stance that cost them nothing and meant nothing. Crimea is still part of Russia today. The gas is still flowing west. It's easy to moralize when your country sits protected as it has been for the last 75 years.
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#700
Jan 12 2020 10:04pm
Quote (bogie160 @ 12 Jan 2020 22:22)
Perhaps you can help me. Who decides what international law is or isn't? Who enforces it? When we say "that's against the law", it's always an appeal to a higher authority who enforces a social contract or mutual agreement. Who is the higher authority here?

Germany took a moral stance that cost them nothing and meant nothing. Crimea is still part of Russia today. The gas is still flowing west. It's easy to moralize when your country sits protected as it has been for the last 75 years.


protected from themselves more than anyone else and thank God for that. warmongering little shits started and lost two out of two world wars
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