Got Questions About God? - Topic

CPK001

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#681

May 20 2013 07:30am

Quote (Skinned @ May 20 2013 09:05pm)

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/dunnweb/rprnts.omelas.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx7Z5B3wWmE

poulgaragr

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#682

May 27 2013 03:49am

Quote (poulgaragr @ Apr 13 2013 08:53pm)

Here's what CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS THEMSELVES say about Bible corruption; I will HIGHLIGHT the important parts in BOLD RED:

The Revised Standard Version of the Bible is an authorized revision of the American Standard Version, published in 1901, which was a revision of the King James Version, published in 1611.
The first English version of the Scriptures made by direct translation from the original Hebrew and Greek, and the first to be printed, was the work of William Tyndale. He met bitter opposition. He was accused of willfully perverting the meaning of the Scriptures, and his New Testaments were ordered to be burned as “untrue translations.” He was finally betrayed into the hands of his enemies, and in October 1536, was publicly executed and burned at the stake.
Yet Tyndale’s work became the foundation of subsequent English versions, notably those of Coverdale, 1535; Thomas Matthew (probably a pseudonym for John Rogers), 1537; the Great Bible, 1539; the Geneva Bible, 1560; and the Bishops’ Bible, 1568. In 1582, a translation of the New Testament, made from the Latin Vulgate by Roman Catholic scholars, was published at Rheims.
The translators who made the King James Version took into account all of these preceding versions; and comparison shows that it owes something to each of them. It kept felicitous phrases and apt expressions, from whatever source, which had stood the test of public usage. It owed most, especially in the New Testament, to Tyndale.
The King James Version had to compete with the Geneva Bible in popular use; but in the end it prevailed, and for more than two and a half centuries no other authorized translation of the Bible into English was made. The King James Version became the “Authorized Version” of the English-speaking peoples.
The King James Version has with good reason been termed “the noblest monument of English prose.” Its revisers in 1881 expressed admiration for “its simplicity, its dignity, its power, its happy turns of expression ... the music of it cadences, and the felicities of its rhythm.” It entered, as no other book has, into the making of the personal character and the public institutions of the English-speaking peoples. We owe to it an incalculable debt.
Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English translation. The task was undertaken, by authority of the Church of England, in 1870. The English Revised Version of the Bible was published in 1881-1885; and the American Standard Version, its variant embodying the preferences of the American scholars associated in the work, was published in 1901.
Because of unhappy experience with unauthorized publications in the two decades between 1881 and 1901, which tampered with the text of the English Revised Version in the supposed interest of the American public, the American Standard Version was copyrighted, to protect the text from unauthorized changes. In 1928, this copyright was acquired by the International Council of Religious Education, and thus passed into the ownership of the churches of the United States and Canada which were associated in this Council through their boards of education and publication.
The Council appointed a committee of scholars to have charge of the text of the American Standard Version and to undertake inquiry as to whether further revision was necessary. For more than two years the Committee worked upon the problem of whether or not revision should be undertaken; and if so, what should be its nature and extent. In the end the decision was reached that there is need for a thorough revision of the version of 1901, which will stay as close to the Tyndale-King James tradition as it can in the light of our present knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek texts and their meaning on the one hand, and our present understanding of English on the other.
In 1937, the revision was authorized by vote of the Council, which directed that the resulting version should “embody the best results of modern scholarship as to the meaning of the Scriptures, and express this meaning in English diction which is designed for use in public and private worship, and preserves those qualities which have given to the King James Version a supreme place in English literature.”
Thirty-two scholars have served as members of the Committee charged with making the revision, and they have secured the review and counsel of an Advisory Board of fifty representatives of the cooperating denominations. The Committee has worked in two sections, one dealing with the Old Testament and one with the New Testament. Each section has submitted its work to the scrutiny of the members of the other section; and the charter of the Committee requires that all changes be agreed upon by a two-thirds vote of the total membership of the Committee. The Revised Standard Version of the New Testament was published in 1946. The publication of the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, containing the Old and New Testaments, was authorized by vote of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. in 1951.
The problem of establishing the correct Hebrew and Aramaic text of the Old Testament is very different from the corresponding problem in the New Testament. For the New Testament we have a large number of Greek manuscripts, preserving many variant forms of the text. Some of them were made only two or three centuries later than the original composition of the books. For the Old Testament, only late manuscripts survive, all (with the exception of the Dead Sea texts of Isaiah and Habakkuk and some fragments of other books) based on a standardized form of the text established many centuries after the books were written.
The present revision is based on the consonantal Hebrew and Aramaic text as fixed early in the Christian era and revised by Jewish scholars (the “Masoretes”) of the sixth to ninth centuries. The vowel-signs, which were added by the Masoretes, are accepted also in the main, but where a more probable and convincing reading can be obtained by assuming different vowels, this has been done. No notes are given in such cases, because the vowel points are less ancient and reliable than the consonants.
Departures from the consonantal text of the best manuscripts have been made only where it seems clear that errors in copying had been made before the text was standardized. Most of the corrections adopted are based on the ancient versions (translations into Greek, Aramaic, Syriac, and Latin), which were made before the time of the Masoretic revision and therefore reflect earlier forms of the text. In every such instance, a footnote specifies the version or versions from which the correction has been derived, and also gives a translation of the Masoretic Text.
Sometimes it is evident that the text has suffered in transmission, but none of the versions provides a satisfactory restoration. Here we can only follow the best judgment of competent scholars as to the most probable reconstruction of the original text. Such corrections are indicated in the footnotes by the abbreviation Cn, and a translation of the Masoretic Text is added.
The discovery of the meaning of the text, once the best readings have been established, is aided by many new resources for understanding the original languages. Much progress has been made in the historical and comparative study of these languages. A vast quantity of writings in related Semitic languages, some of them only recently discovered, has greatly enlarged our knowledge of the vocabulary and grammar of Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic. Sometimes the present translation will be found to render a Hebrew word in a sense quite different from that of the traditional interpretation. It has not been felt necessary in such cases to attach a footnote, because no change in the text is involved and it may be assumed that the new rendering was not adopted without convincing evidence. The analysis of religious texts from the ancient Near East has made clearer the significance of ideas and practices recorded in the Old Testament. Many difficulties and obscurities, of course, remain. Where the choice between two meanings is particularly difficult or doubtful, we have given an alternative rendering in a footnote. If in the judgment of the Committee the meaning of a passage is quite uncertain or obscure, either because of corruption in the text or because of the inadequacy of our present knowledge of the language, that fact is indicated by a note. It should not be assumed, however, that the Committee was entirely sure or unanimous concerning every rendering not so indicated. To record all minority views was obviously out of the question.
A major departure from the practice of the American Standard Version is the rendering of the Divine Name, the “Tetragrammaton.” The American Standard Version used the term “Jehovah”; the King James Version had employed this in four places, but everywhere else, except in three cases where it was employed as part of a proper name, used the English word Lord (or in certain cases God) printed in capitals. The present revision returns to the procedure of the King James Version, which follows the precedent of the ancient Greek and Latin translators and the long established practice in the reading of the Hebrew scriptures in the synagogue. While it is almost if not quite certain that the Name was originally pronounced “Yahweh,” this pronunciation was not indicated when the Masoretes added vowel signs to the consonantal Hebrew text. To the four consonants YHWH of the Name, which had come to be regarded as too sacred to be pronounced, they attached vowel signs indicating that in its place should be read the Hebrew word Adonai meaning “Lord” (or Elohim meaning “God”). The ancient Greek translators substituted the work Kyrios (Lord) for the Name. The Vulgate likewise used the Latin word Dominus. The form “Jehovah” is of late medieval origin; it is a combination of the consonants of the Divine Name and the vowels attached to it by the Masoretes but belonging to an entirely different word. The sound of Y is represented by J and the sound of W by V, as in Latin. For two reasons the Committee has returned to the more familiar usage of the King James Version: (1) the word “Jehovah” does not accurately represent any form of the Name ever used in Hebrew; and (2) the use of any proper name for the one and only God, as though there were other gods from whom He had to be distinguished, was discontinued in Judaism before the Christian era and is entirely inappropriate for the universal faith of the Christian Church.
The King James Version of the New Testament was based upon a Greek text that was marred by mistakes, containing the accumulated errors of fourteen centuries of manuscript copying. It was essentially the Greek text of the New Testament as edited by Beza, 1589, who closely followed that published by Erasmus, 1516-1535, which was based upon a few medieval manuscripts. The earliest and best of the eight manuscripts which Erasmus consulted was from the tenth century, and he made the least use of it because it differed most from the commonly received text; Beza had access to two manuscripts of great value, dating from the fifth and sixth centuries, but he made very little use of them because they differed from the text published by Erasmus.
We now possess many more ancient manuscripts of the New Testament, and are far better equipped to seek to recover the original wording of the Greek text. The evidence for the text of the books of the New Testament is better than for any other ancient book, both in the number of extant manuscripts and in the nearness of the date of some of these manuscripts to the date when the book was originally written.
The revisers in the 1870’s had most of the evidence that we now have for the Greek text, though the most ancient of all extant manuscripts of the Greek New Testament were not discovered until 1931. But they lacked the resources which discoveries within the past eighty years have afforded for understanding the vocabulary, grammar, and idioms of the Greek New Testament. An amazing body of Greek papyri has been unearthed in Egypt since the 1870’s—private letters, official reports, wills, business accounts, petitions, and other such trivial, everyday recordings of the activities of human beings. In 1895 appeared the first of Adolf Deissmann’s studies of these ordinary materials. He proved that many words which had hitherto been assumed to belong to what was called “Biblical Greek” were current in the spoken vernacular of the first century A.D. The New Testament was written in the Koiné, the common Greek which was spoken and understood practically everywhere throughout the Roman Empire in the early centuries of the Christian era. This development in the study of New Testament Greek has come since the work on the English Revised Version and the American Standard Version was done, and at many points sheds new light upon the meaning of the Greek text.
A major reason for revision of the King James Version, which is valid for both the Old Testament and the New Testament, is the change since 1611 in English usage. Many forms of expression have become archaic, while still generally intelligible—the use of thou, thee, thy, thine and the verb endings -est and -edst, the verb endings -eth and -th, it came to pass that, whosoever, whatsoever, insomuch that, because that, for that, unto, howbeit, peradventure, holden, aforetime, must needs, would fain, behooved, to you-ward, etc. Other words are obsolete and no longer understood by the common reader. The greatest problem, however, is presented by the English words which are still in constant use but now convey a different meaning from that which they had in 1611 and in the King James Version. These words were once accurate translations of the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures; but now, having changed in meaning, they have become misleading. They no longer say what the King James translators meant them to say.
Thus, the King James Version uses the word “let” in the sense of “hinder,” “prevent” to mean “precede,” “allow” in the sense of “approve,” “communicate” for “share,” “conversation” for “conduct,” “comprehend” for “overcome,” “ghost” for “spirit,” “wealth” for “well-being,” “allege” for “prove,” “demand” for “ask,” “take no thought” for “be not anxious,” etc.
The Revised Standard Version of the Bible, containing the Old and New Testaments, was published on September 30, 1952, and has met with wide acceptance. This preface does not undertake to set forth in detail the lines along which the revision proceeded. That is done in pamphlets entitled An Introduction to the Revised Standard Version of the Old Testament and An Introduction to the Revised Standard Version of the New Testament, written by members of the Committee and designed to help the general public to understand the main principles which have guided this comprehensive revision of the King James and American Standard versions.
These principles were reaffirmed by the Committee in 1959, in connection with a study of criticisms and suggestions from various readers. As a result, a few changes were authorized for subsequent editions, most of them corrections of punctuation, capitalization, or footnotes. Some of them are changes of words and phrases made in the interest of consistency, clarity, or accuracy of translation.
The Revised Standard Version Bible Committee is a continuing body, holding its meetings at regular intervals. It has become both ecumenical and international, with Protestant and Catholic members, who come from Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.
The Second Edition of the translation of the New Testament (1971) profits from textual and linguistic studies published since the Revised Standard Version New Testament was first issued in 1946. Many proposals for modification were submitted to the Committee by individuals and by two denominational committees. All of these were given careful attention by the Committee.
Two passages, the longer ending of Mark (16.9-20) and the account of the woman caught in adultery (Jn 7.53-8.11), are restored to the text, separated from it by a blank space and accompanied by informative notes describing the various arrangements of the text in the ancient authorities. With new manuscript support, two passages, Lk 22.19b-20 and 24.51b, are restored to the text, and one passage, Lk 22.43-44, is placed in the note, as is a phrase in Lk 12.39. Notes are added which indicate significant variations, additions, or omissions in the ancient authorities (Mt 9.34; Mk 3.16; 7.4; Lk 24.32,51, etc.). Among the new notes are those giving the equivalence of ancient coinage with the contemporary day’s or year’s wages of a laborer (Mt 18.24,28; 20.2; etc.). Some of the revisions clarify the meaning through rephrasing or reordering the text (see Mk 5.42; Lk 22.29-30; Jn 10.33; 1 Cor 3.9; 2 Cor 5.19; Heb 13.13). Even when the changes appear to be largely matters of English style, they have the purpose of presenting to the reader more adequately the meaning of the text (see Mt 10.8; 12.1; 15.29; 17.20; Lk 7.36; 11.17; 12.40; Jn 16.9; Rom 10.16; 1 Cor 12.24; 2 Cor 2.3; 3.5,6; etc.).
The Revised Standard Version Bible seeks to preserve all that is best in the English Bible as it has been known and used through the years. It is intended for use in public and private worship, not merely for reading and instruction. We have resisted the temptation to use phrases that are merely current usage, and have sought to put the message of the Bible in simple, enduring words that are worthy to stand in the great Tyndale-King James tradition. We are glad to say, with the King James translators: “Truly (good Christian Reader) we never thought from the beginning, that we should need to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one ... but to make a good one better.”
The Bible is more than a historical document to be preserved. And it is more than a classic of English literature to be cherished and admired. It is a record of God’s dealing with men, of God’s revelation of Himself and His will. It records the life and work of Him in whom the Word of God became flesh and dwelt among men. The Bible carries its full message, not to those who regard it simply as a heritage of the past or praise its literary style, but to those who read it that they may discern and understand God’s Word to men. That Word must not be disguised in phrases that are no longer clear, or hidden under words that have changed or lost their meaning. It must stand forth in language that is direct and plain and meaningful to people today. It is our hope and our earnest prayer that this Revised Standard Version of the Bible may be used by God to speak to men in these momentous times, and to help them to understand and believe and obey his Word.

Source: http://www.bible-researcher.com/rsvpreface.html

This.

Edit: Look no further; the Bible is corrupt, as shown above according to the words of Christians Scholars themselves.

This post was edited by poulgaragr on May 27 2013 03:52am

El Shadday

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#683

May 28 2013 05:08pm

Quote (CPK001 @ 20 May 2013 07:47)

You feeling sorry for Satan are you?

we should not feel sorry for him?
Jesus said love your enemies.
or the Bible is wrong?

poulgaragr

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#684

May 28 2013 07:30pm

http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=66332464&f=119&p=452944302

Best comment ever, with scientific knowledge/proof.

Look no further.

This post was edited by poulgaragr on May 28 2013 07:31pm

CPK001

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#685

May 28 2013 08:12pm

Quote (El Shadday @ May 29 2013 09:08am)

we should not feel sorry for him?
Jesus said love your enemies.
or the Bible is wrong?

Quote (poulgaragr @ May 27 2013 07:49pm)

This.

Edit: Look no further; the Bible is corrupt, as shown above according to the words of Christians Scholars themselves.

Oh thanks for reviving this thread. I do believe that, that was already refuted by various people anyway.

If you really want to know where it was refuted you would go back and search the 69 pages of this thread. If not then you are not really interested in other people's views about how that was refuted.

Remember how what you COPIED & PASTED from that website was all about the KJV of the Bible?

poulgaragr

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#686

May 30 2013 05:57am

Quote (CPK001 @ May 29 2013 05:12am)

I know exactly where I can get the answer from. However what you just said about feeling sorry for the most evil being in the Universe speaks for itself.

All it takes is an easy Google search of "Should we love Satan" and you'll get the answer. If you really want to know the answer you'll look it up yourself. If not then you are not interested in the answer is you're just looking for an excuse.

Oh thanks for reviving this thread. I do believe that, that was already refuted by various people anyway.

If you really want to know where it was refuted you would go back and search the 69 pages of this thread. If not then you are not really interested in other people's views about how that was refuted.

Remember how what you COPIED & PASTED from that website was all about the KJV of the Bible?

Remember the fact that this says that ALL BIBLES are corrupt, and that NONE provide a satisfactory restoration?

Nothing was refuted; your Bible is CORRUPT, and it was NEVER the word of God to begin with.

Reminder:

"Sometimes it is evident that the text has suffered in transmission, but none of the versions provides a satisfactory restoration."

Case Closed.

CPK001

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#687

May 30 2013 08:30am

Okay then, lets see what happens when I do what you do, which is copy and paste a massive essay, expect you to read it and take it into account with an open mind and refute it if possible. Let's see how much your views are changed.

Bear in mind I had to take some stuff out.

MATHEMATICAL PROOF OF THE BIBLE'S VALIDITY
The Bible is the one true Word of God! We must seriously consider the evidence, as eternity hangs in the balance. The Bible can be easily validated by any open mind that will honestly consider all the facts. Any skeptic will be hard pressed to deny the following pages in this publication. It is a choice to investigate this matter with an open mind and sincerity? So choose whom you will serve this day as you approach the subject matter below!

Point to ponder: When seeds of doubt are planted, regarding the authority of God?s Word, disobedience manifests more easily. The conscience becomes seared and the heart is hardened, resulting in wrong choices (sin). As God's Word girds society, it brings freedom, accountability, and responsibility, and results in prosperity. When dismissed, man will indulge in his hedonistic appetites and selfish pursuits.

The account below was taken from a tract pamphlet given to me that was edited by a Dr. Kieth L. Brooks. It was published by Book Fellowship, Box 164, N. Syracuse, N.Y. 13212. So after searching the Internet regarding Dr. Panin (a converted Russian nihilist, Harvard scholar, and mathematician), his work below was amazingly verified and impacted my faith in God and Jesus Christ! It may be hard to understand and follow at times but the evidence brought forth is astounding!

Who is Dr. Panin and what did he discover?
One of the most remarkable occurrences in our time is God's preparation of one individual to produce positive evidence that would completely undermine all biblical criticism and bring atheism toppling to the ground wherever honest, thinking men would face the facts. More startling still is the notion that this individual was a converted Russian nihilist, Harvard scholar, and a mathematician. At the very time when organized atheism was laying its plan to gain control of Russia and make use of its vast resources to sow the seeds of atheism in every nation on earth, God was preparing His Russian servant, Ivan Panin, to bring forth scientific evidence of the verbal and absolute inspiration of the holy scriptures in their original languages.

Dr. Panin, who passed away in October, 1942, after 50 years of work on Bible numerica, was not the first to discover that there was a strange mathematical structure running through the Bible. There was Browne in his Ordo Saeculoreum, and Grant in his Numerical Bible, and Bullinger in his Numbers on the Scriptures. They all brought forth many striking examples of numeric features in the Bible. Now, other competent scholars carry on further research in this line.

It remained for Dr. Panin, however, by giving his very life to the task, to find that every letter of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts is numbered and occupies its own special place in the order of the total number of letters in the Bible, the slightest variations of orthography being God ordained. Since every Greek and Hebrew letter carries a numerical value (letters being used for figures in these languages), every word, phrase, sentence, and paragraph has a definite mathematical sum, as later will be shown.

Dr. Panin devoted himself so persistently to counting letters and solving the mathematical problems that he often wore himself out physically. His works were voluminous and his discoveries seemingly without end. He authored a volume entitled Structure on the Bible and revisions of the New Testament based upon his numeric discoveries. Since his death, the Nobel research foundation, which took over some 43,000 sheets of his pen work, has employed Hebrew and Greek scholars to further pursue the study and issue a book on the subject.

Panin's establishment of the practically infinite series of complex systems in the Hebrew and Greek text, all sequences, combinations, ratios, etc., following a uniform design from Genesis to Revelation, is undoubtedly God's answer to modern atheism and higher criticism, and his vindication of the verbal and complete inspiration of scripture. The discovery also settles many questions of text. It proves that the books of our present Bible, and they alone, have the required features of authenticity and divine inspiration. It also settles disputes of long standing, including about some portions of the Bible which scholars have said should be eliminated.

In this chapter, it is only possible to touch upon the surface of Dr. Panin's work. The Divine authority of scripture has always been fully sustained by proofs from fulfilled prophecy, the inexhaustible gaps of truth revealed, its matchless power over the lives of men, its indestructibility, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. However, some have wanted to waive these lines of evidence as unscientific. Dr. Panin has submitted conclusive, scientific proof that the Bible could not have been produced by the unaided human mind. This proof is found in the amazing numeric phenomena in the very structure of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. Dr. Panin demonstrated either that every other writer of scripture was an unparalleled literary and mathematical genius or that he wrote as he was moved by the Holy Ghost. Professor John C. Banks, a worthy successor of Dr. Panin, has offered similar numeric evidence.

Panin laid his discoveries before the readers of a New York newspaper, copies of which were sent to leading skeptical educators and scientists, with a challenge to disapprove, if possible, the phenomena to which he had called attention. Since that time, many other learned skeptics have been confronted with the same evidence and not one has been able to discredit it. Some challenged Dr Panin to find the same mathematical structure in Hebrew and Greek classics outside of the Bible. Panin, therefore, gave much time to examining other writings and failed to find such a phenomena. And no such features were found in any of the seven books added by the Roman church to their Old Testament.

The Number Seven
It is a known fact that the number seven is found throughout the universe. It is evidently the number of the Creator, and the number of fullness, rest, and completeness. Not only is this law of seven found running throughout creation, but it is found scores of times on the surface of scripture, and it always appears to be significant. Furthermore, careful students have often been amazed to find this number appearing in unexpected ways in scripture. Yet, skeptics might attribute this to the writer considering seven to be a mystical number, and writing important sentences in exactly seven words, or cleverly developing subjects with seven points.

As we study the mathematical proof that the Bible is truly the Word of God, may we realize that Panin?s work deals not with translations but the original Hebrew and Greek texts. Translation difficulties have been tremendous. Constant changes occurring in language usage have rendered many words in our English translation practically obsolete, hence the various attempts at "modern speech" translations. But how could Panin get back to the originals, since we do not know for certain that we have originals? The answer is that a comparison of hundreds of manuscripts preserved for us shows a uniformity that proves a common source.

The following is an abbreviated example of the kind of phenomena found by Dr. Panin in the original Hebrew and Greek Bible texts:

*The number of words in the vocabulary will divide by the number seven.

*The number of words beginning with a vowel is divisible by seven.

*The number of words beginning with a consonant is divisible by seven.

*The number of letters in the vocabulary is divisible by seven.

*Of the vocabulary letters, those which are vowels and those which are consonants will both divide by seven.

*The number of words in the vocabulary occurring more than once is divisible by seven. Those occurring only once likewise divide by seven.

*The number of words occurring in more than one form is divisible by seven. The number occurring in only one form likewise divides by seven.

*The number of proper names divides by seven. The male names divide by seven. The female names divide by seven.

*The number of words beginning with each of the letters of the alphabet is divisible by seven.

Numeric Values of Letters
The Bible was written in two languages: the Old Testament was written in Hebrew (for numeric purposes, the few chapters in Chaldee are counted as Hebrew) and the New Testament in Greek. Both of these languages have a peculiarity: they have no separate symbols for numbers that correspond to the modern Arabic numerals 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 0. In their place, they make use of the letters on their alphabet, so that each Hebrew and Greek letter also stands for a certain number. This is called the numeric value of the letter. As each word consists of letters, the numeric value of a word is the sum of the numeric values of its letters. The numeric value of a sentence, paragraph, chapter, book, volume, or library, is the sum of the numeric values of the words of which they consist.

By means of these numeric values, the Greeks and Hebrews performed all of their numeric operations. But in scripture, an additional system is used for the purpose of numeric construction and that of text place values.

The place value of the letter in scripture, whether Hebrew or Greek, is the number of the place the letter occupies in the alphabet. Accordingly, in Hebrew, the place values and the numeric values of the first ten letters are the same. That?s also true of the first five letters in the Greek alphabet. Yet the 11th Hebrew letter does not stand for 11, but 20; its numerical value is 20, but its place value is 11. The last letter of the Hebrew alphabet, the 22nd, stands for 400. So while its place value is 22, its numeric value is 400. The same applies to the Greek alphabet. Its sixth letter stands for seven, its numeric value, but its place value is six.

The full value of a Hebrew or Greek letter or word is the sum of its numeric and place values. Thus, the value of the word "Jesus" in Greek is 975, the numeric value is 888, and the place value is 87. Now to note some other features of the Hebrew and Greek alphabets:

*The numerical value of the vocabulary is divisible by seven.

*The numerical value of the various alphabetical groups of words is divisible by seven.

*The numerical value of the various forms in which the words occur produce the same phenomenon.

The above numeration barely scratches the surface of the numerics Panin brought to light. He challenged any man to intelligently write one paragraph of 300 words and produce some numeric phenomena of like design, and complete it in six months. Any man who could do it would prove himself to be a wonder. Is it any surprise that no man has offered!

Many of the scripture writers were men chosen from very ordinary walks of life, having little or no schooling. If Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, for instance, had attempted to write by unaided human wisdom, and produced the harmonious numeric features found throughout their books, how long would it have taken them? Remember that with each additional sentence, the difficulty of building on this plan increases in mathematical and geometrical progression, for they tried to write each paragraph in such a way as to develop constantly fixed numeric relationships to what was written before and what would come after.

But an even more amazing feature remains: the number of words found in Matthew, which are not found in any other New Testament book, displays an even more elaborate numeric design. How did Matthew know that he had used words that would not appear in any of the other 26 books? He would have had to have before him all of those books, and would have to have written his last. It so happens, however, that each of the other books shows the same phenomena. Did each writer write last? If not, then is each of the writers a mind reader, as well as a literary and mathematical artist, never equaled and hardly even conceivable?

Panin proceeded to prove by numerics that every book of our Bible carries such features, that each one is necessary for the numerical scheme of the entire Bible to work out correctly, and that nothing can be added to or subtracted from the Bible, as it is written, without spoiling these features. From the first verse in Genesis to the last verse of Revelation, these divine evidences are found. The God of nature is, therefore, proven to be the God of scripture. Thus the quarrel of modern skeptics is not with believers of the Bible but with God himself. Yet seven is not the only number that proves of interest. There are equally intriguing developments with other numbers, all of which are significant in their places.

The Infinite Mind of God
On the assumption of mere human authorship, these numeric phenomena, in the order and unanimity and non-unanimity of the books, are wholly unaccountable. But the assumption that a superior mathematical mind (or the mathematical author of nature) has planned these numerics at once explains not only these phenomena, but thousands of similar ones that can be brought forward.

Does this mean that critical scholars of the world and the atheists and infidels will now all be brought to bended knee in the name of Jesus Christ, and they will accept scripture? No, indeed! For scores of them who already have been confronted with these facts, and have pushed them aside, saying either they have no time to investigate or they are not interested in the mathematics of the Bible. "The world by wisdom knows not God," and "the natural man received not the things of the Spirit of God," no matter how strongly the evidence of divine inspiration is presented. If the infinite Christ himself could not convince the scholars of his day, no numeric phenomena revealed in our day will convince those who do not want to be convinced.

"This is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil." The value of these discoveries lies chiefly in their power to confirm the faith of those born again in these last days, encouraging them, like great disclosures of archaeology, to proclaim with renewed power the old Gospel, which, accompanied by the convicting power of the Holy Ghost, is able to break down the infidelity of those who are blinded by the enemy of our souls.

ADDED NOTE: While Dr. Panin used Bible numerics to establish the validity of scripture, he included what some critics and skeptics thought to be controversial. One such passage was Mark 16:19-20, which many theological skeptics have attempted to discredit. The claim was that it was missing in some of the Greek manuscripts, therefore it was not valid.

The last 12 verses of Mark are very unique and interesting. There are 60 features of the number seven, including: having 175 words, or 25 sevens; having a vocabulary of 98 words, or 2 x 49 or seven sevens; having 553 letters, or 79 sevens; with 133 forms, or 19 sevens; and continuing on to every smallest detail.

CONCLUSION
Concerning the work of Dr. Panin, Professor A. Gordon Melvin of New York City, prominent in the field of secular education, made a pilgrimage to Aldershot, Canada, to see Dr. Panin, and the following report was given:

"After talking with Dr. Panin and looking over his work thoroughly, I feel it is time for a concerted effort of those who know this work to make it available to many who do not know of it. I find that Dr. Panin has in his possession data in the form of numeric concordances, which represent years of labor. I was alarmed to see them in such a terrible condition."

NOTE: The Nobel Foundation considered these manuscripts of such importance that a special camera was set up to photograph some 43,000 sheets. They have since been checked for mathematical errors and some corrections made. Also, additional numeric features have been discovered by the scholars doing this work.

Dr. W. Belle Dawson, well-known Canadian scientist, wrote: "I quite concur in what to say about Dr. Panin's work, which I have known for a number of years. I am especially interested in its bearing on the decision between various readings, which would be very valuable. I trust his great work may be followed up."

Dr. Arthur I. Brown, Canadian medical scientist and well-known Bible lecture, now with the Lord, also visited Dr. Panin and urges us, by all means, to make Panin?s work known.

Dr. D. M. Panton of London, editor of The Dawn and well-known Bible teacher, says: "Mr. Panin's discovery is as astounding as any discovery that could be made, is one of God?s solvents for the final crisis. It is the death blow of all disintegrating criticism, not, alas, that the critics will be convinced, for the foundations of their doubt lie far deeper than the intellect, and where confirmed belief is confuted, it merely shifts into ground; nevertheless, it remains for all who appeal to the intellect, a response from the intellect, in the mercy of God, who meets every soul on its own grounds. The destructive analyzer of the scripture stands revealed as an infant analyst in the grasp of a complexity of which he never dreamed. Verbal inspiration is here mathematically proved, passed all cavil. The scripture discloses itself as a parchment which, when held up to the light, reveals the graph of its maker; a script that there is exactly that imprint of a miraculous arithmetic, which is borne by the snowflakes falling in a flawless mathematical pattern, or by the perfect convolutions of a shell. To Dr. Panin's critics I would say, 'Do you challenge his figures? If so, where are they wrong? If not, his inferences are indisputable. You cannot argue with mathematics.?"

PLEASE CONSIDER THIS: With these indisputable facts before us, how utterly foolhardy it would be to turn them aside and deliberately go on our way to an eternal hell. Turn to Jesus Christ the Savior of all mankind!

Source: http://muiczone.com/Article_View.cfm?ArticleID=15

brmv

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#688

May 30 2013 09:11am

Quote (CPK001 @ 30 May 2013 14:30)

congratulation - if your intention was to make a post worse than the ones from 'poulgaragr' you definitely achieved it this time :lol:

poulgaragr

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#689

May 30 2013 06:29pm

Ok let me put this in a more simple way:

Does God make mistakes? Can His "Holy Book" contain errors/mistakes/contradictions/porn(etc.) ?

Yes, or no?

Santara

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#690

May 30 2013 08:15pm

Quote (poulgaragr @ May 28 2013 08:30pm)

http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=66332464&f=119&p=452944302

Best comment ever, with scientific knowledge/proof.

Look no further.

Seriously, did you just gag on your own pole?

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