Quote (thesnipa @ 27 Nov 2023 20:17)

3. hamas

Quote (celloboy126 @ 27 Nov 2023 16:03)

1. Netanyahu has encouraged Qatar to send Hamas money as late as 2021 as Haaretz reported, because he uses them as a scapegoat to justify ethnic cleansing. He has been funding Hamas since the early 90s to weaken the secular, western-friendly PLO led by Yasser Arafat at the time, because he didn't want the west to sympathize with Palestinians when he did his ethnic cleansing.

2. The IDF has targeted water tanks and solar panels with accurate weaponry that does not miss. They have bombed caravans fleeing south after telling Palestinians in Gaza to flee south. They have admitted that they bombed 22+ hospitals in Gaza. Their MO is "hamas is hiding everywhere, so we are justified in carpet bombing". Sorry, but 7000+ children dead is not "minimizing casualties". Israeli media even brags about the number of dead Palestinians, calling them all "terrorists." And even if there's a Hamas militant hiding amongst 7 Palestinian children in a room, that doesn't justify blowing all of them up! The "human shields" argument is incredibly stupid, and is just a way to try to absolve trigger-happy Israelis of guilt from the IDF attempting to wipe out an entire ethnic group.

3. This conflict did not begin on Oct 7th with the egregious war crimes of Hamas against innocent Israelis. It began 75 years ago with the Nakba in 1948 and systematic ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from what was their land. Of course Palestinians would side with whatever side is resisting occupation (Hamas), even if they are extremely barbaric and evil.

4. The "but Hamas" argument fails spectacularly in the West Bank, where there is no Hamas, but there is still ethnic cleansing. In the West Bank, Palestinians are being told to leave or face extermination. Hundreds have already been murdered by the IDF and armed Israeli settlers even though there is no Palestinian resistance or Hamas presence there.

5. Israel is infinitely stronger than whatever forces are in Gaza on the Palestinian side, including Hamas. This is not a conflict, it is a slaughter. If Israel wanted to, it could flatten Gaza entirely with bombs and kill every Palestinian living there. The one thing stopping it is public pressure. Even the US won't stand by and watch as Israel commits genocide of the Palestinian people; Biden's approval rating is lower than ever before as a result of the youth waking up to the US's complicit role in the ongoing Palestinian genocide. Palestinians have no power to escape or improve their situation. In Gaza they tried armed resistance (albeit in a gruesome and evil way). In the West Bank they tried nonviolence. In East Jerusalem they tried peacefully living in Israel. Nothing seems to work. The onus is on Israel to end the occupation, and slowly allow Palestinians in Gaza/West Bank a form of return to Israel. Israel will have to get rid of its miscegenation laws, its two road system, its practice of having Palestinians face military tribunal with 100% conviction rate while Israelis get civil courts, and all the other aspects of the apartheid it created. Israel will become a true democracy and cease to be an ethnostate then. And the world needs to apply strong pressure through sanctions, boycotts, lobbying politicians, etc to force Israel's hand.

6. What's happening to the Palestinians is genocide. Genocide, as laid out in the Rome statute by the ICC, is the dual combination of *intent* to erase a population as well as *demonstrated ability*. There are many examples of Israeli politicians just outwardly admitting they want to wipe out all Palestinians, like they view them as stains. The IDF's bombing campaign clearly indicates their genocidal ambitions as well. Numerous genocide scholars have acknowledged that what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is genocide, in particular through collective punishment and forced relocation.

7. As gross and unconscionably bad Hamas is, they are fundamentally reactionaries that were born out of the destruction Israel imposed on the Palestinian people. Their existence has been a bane to the Palestinian people as well as Israeli civilians. The one group who benefits from them are hardline Israelis who seek the eradication of Palestinians, like Netanyahu, because he can point to them whenever he wants to do a little genociding, while the west watches on. The solution to this whole conflict, once again, is Israel becoming a true democracy, not an ethnostate, and allowing Palestinians the to live, not fencing them in open-air prisons and conducting regular bombing rituals to blow up their children every couple months. Just as the ANC no longer does terrorism in South Africa, and the Black Panthers no longer do terrorism in the US, so Hamas will either cease to exist or will become a completely benign entity once Israel, the player with all the agency in this situation, displays a little humanity to the Palestinians it has entrapped for 75 years.

Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 27 2023 11:17am)

how can 5 and 6 coexist?

israel simultaneously knows it cannot kill all of the people in Gaza, AND they somehow also have intent to do so?

is that like saying i have intent to freeze time and fly? but i just can't do it?


as to #4, the west bank is by no means a paradise of peace and prosperity. but there also hasnt been a large scale war afaik since 1967, and the forces of the PA and Israel work together fairly well considering settlement policy is a very contentious issue. if the population of gaza and israel worked together as well as they do in WB the entire situation changes. really in simple terms the 3 main factors preventing a 2 state settlement today are:

1. israeli hard liners who dont want a 2 state (even pre 10-7)

2. settlement policy preventing the drawing of lines in west bank

3. hamas

the lines are far easier to draw in gaza, hamas is the predominate reason there is no independent palestine in gaza. i say predominate because i think its easier to persuade israeli hard liners to cede gaza than it is to persuade hamas hard liners to not use independence to wage even more war on israel.

Quote (celloboy126 @ Nov 27 2023 01:36pm)

I'm not getting into the weeds here, as it's not worth my time. But quickly: Israel needs constant US support to prevent provocation by Iran's Hezbolla, Yemen's Houthi, etc., who all hate Israel for doing a slow genocide of Palestinians over the last 75 years. The fact that a bunch of countries around Israel are Islamic dictatorships doesn't help either. The US sent two carrier strike groups to shield Israel from possible retalliation by Iran days after Oct 7th, and it worked. Nobody's doing shit to the US because the US is the biggest baddie out there. But if Israel loses the support of the American public, then that same American public will pressure American politicians to withdraw support from Israel. Then no more iron dome, no more US military bases in Israel, no more protective carrier strike groups, no more protection; Israel will be forced to use diplomacy instead of pleading for the US to protect it. That is why Israel cannot completely wipe out the Palestinians, even though it wants to and it has the capability of doing so.

Someone with a very low iq also said "how can there be a genocide if the Palestinian population is going up?" to which the obvious rebuttal is: they have lots of kids because they are without hope. That's what you do when you're fenced in an open-air prison and get bombed regularly by a country backed by the most powerful military on the planet (the US) while the world watches. You fuck, because there's nothing else to do. Just because they have a lot of kids doesn't mean you get to bomb them indiscriminately and erase them through forced relocation & collective punishment.

Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 27 2023 11:44am)

Sure, but the math still doesnt work out, at all.

taking this literally, Israel doesn't genocide (kill everyone in gaza) because they'll lose US support. but also if they lose US support, even without killing 2m gazans, they still cant kill all gazans, because like you said they'd depend on diplomacy, and no one will deal with them diplomatically if they just killed 2 million gazans.

so really no reality exists where israel has any real plans to kill 2 million people in gaza. with or without us support, they can't do it. and therefore dont have intent to do so. since the pull out in 2006 there hasnt even been a real attempt to curb the population growth.

this shouldnt really come as a suprise unless you think the people in charge of Israel are literal comic book super villains who are literally planning the death of millions of people. imo even hard liner zionists looking to maximize the borders of control to the historical river to sea Israel wont pull the trigger to accomplish this via full on genocide.

Quote (celloboy126 @ Nov 27 2023 07:36pm)

I'm not getting into the weeds here, as it's not worth my time. But quickly: Israel needs constant US support to prevent provocation by Iran's Hezbolla, Yemen's Houthi, etc., who all hate Israel for doing a slow genocide of Palestinians over the last 75 years. The fact that a bunch of countries around Israel are Islamic dictatorships doesn't help either. The US sent two carrier strike groups to shield Israel from possible retalliation by Iran days after Oct 7th, and it worked. Nobody's doing shit to the US because the US is the biggest baddie out there. But if Israel loses the support of the American public, then that same American public will pressure American politicians to withdraw support from Israel. Then no more iron dome, no more US military bases in Israel, no more protective carrier strike groups, no more protection; Israel will be forced to use diplomacy instead of pleading for the US to protect it. That is why Israel cannot completely wipe out the Palestinians, even though it wants to and it has the capability of doing so.

Someone with a very low iq also said "how can there be a genocide if the Palestinian population is going up?" to which the obvious rebuttal is: they have lots of kids because they are without hope. That's what you do when you're fenced in an open-air prison and get bombed regularly by a country backed by the most powerful military on the planet (the US) while the world watches. You fuck, because there's nothing else to do. Just because they have a lot of kids doesn't mean you get to bomb them indiscriminately and erase them through forced relocation & collective punishment.

Quote (celloboy126 @ Nov 27 2023 01:50pm)

you can play around with the word "intent" but if you look at all into the rhetoric of Israeli politicians it's obvious. They want to wipe out the Palestinians, and the only thing preventing them from doing so is international pressure, especially the threat of losing US support. If you want a whole twitter thread with receipts of genocidal intent uttered by Israeli politicians & media, check it out here: https://x.com/KintsugiMuslim/status/1724956460931559573?s=20

And here's a really interesting thread on how what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is genocide: https://x.com/iyad_elbaghdadi/status/1724098008885690836?s=20

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Nov 27 2023 11:52am)

"That is why Israel cannot completely wipe out the Palestinians, even though it wants to and it has the capability of doing so."

This is where your argument falls down. If Israel wanted to wipe anyone out, it would be done.
Biden and Blinked tried to reign in Israel weeks ago, they ignored these requests.

Yes Israel is intrinsically linked to the US, but not at the detriment of acting in its own self interests; If they truly had intent to eradicate Palestinians, it would be done already. Regardless of the US support or not of such an action.
No need for Iron dome if Israel eradicates its closest threats. No need for carrier strikes groups. None of that.

Proving intent is very difficult. Because even if certain politicians say certain things at different times. What the leaders are saying at the crucial times. As in Netanyahu's address regarding the war. Is what we can accurately judge as signals of intent.

Several state sponsored propagandist/media personalities in Russia call for nuclear apocalypse, destruction of London, Warsaw and Berlin almost on a daily basis.
Even Medvedev's rhetoric is entirely absurd levels of escalatory languages.

But those can't be used as Proof of intent to an extent that would withstand any real scutiny. Its the actions that have to be judged and then that becomes open to interpretation.

Quote (celloboy126 @ Nov 27 2023 08:02pm)

mm yes very smart reply, we must look at the action mmyes, brilliant. So 7000+ trapped Palestinian kids murdered by Israeli bombs, mm yes very fascinating, doesn't count as evidence of genocidal intent. Netanyahu rejecting calls for a ceasefire as he orders bombing caravans of fleeing Palestinians in Gaza, doesn't count. See this is why arguing here is a waste of my time, too many dumbfucks.

Biden is very pro-Israel... There are clips of him on the senate floor in the 80s arguing for using Israel as a US military base in the ME. But he is increasingly uncomfortable with being associated with genocide, and his base is faltering. He didn't ask Netanyahu to end things, he asked Netanyahu to do a brief pause, which Netanyahu agreed to. Israel is the US's bitch, not the other way around. Even though Israel has nukes, it absolutely cannot survive against Iran / Egypt / Yemen / Jordan / maybe even Saudis / Russians etc. Israel is prevented from doing what it wants to do to the Palestinians thanks to international pressure.