d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > European Union News > What's Up In The Eu.
Prev1656657658659660717Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 20,044
Joined: Apr 13 2016
Gold: 32,397.50
Jul 5 2024 07:17am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 5 2024 01:40pm)
Official UK results:
https://www.bbc.com/news/election/2024/uk/results

It's quite astounding how Labour has secured one of the largest seat majorities in UK history, based on a vote share of a measly 33.7% of the vote, significantly lower than what they got in their losing (!) campaign of 2017 and barely above their dismal performance in 2019. Gaining 1.6% in the vote after THESE disastrous 5 years from the Tories is actually quite pathetic. Compared to 2010, Labour has gained 4.7% after 14 consecutive years of Tory rule. :unsure:

Keir Starmer has triumphed in this election not because him or Labour won over a lot of people, he will be PM because he was able to keep Labour steady while the Tories collapsed. In spite of the huge Labour majority, they don't actually have a strong mandate from the UK's electorate.

For the Tories, it was a complete and well-deserved rout, but relative to expectations, this was actually a decent night for them. The cataclysmic wipeout that some polls predicted did not come to pass, they retained enough seats to remain a functional party, even stay the official opposition by a decent margin. And their competition on the political right from Reform UK wasn't able to achieve a full breakthrough.

The LibDems saw barely any change to their support level, but were able to pick off a lot of seats due to the Tory collapse.

The second big loser of the night is the SNP, which lost the bulk of its seats. Like with the Tories, this was a well-deserved punishment for bad government. With this collapse in SNP strength and a Labour government in Westminster, Scottish independence should be off the table for at least the next decade or so.




Another interesting tidbit I saw from the BBC analysts is that Labour support took a huge hit in Muslim-heavy seats, which even allowed the Tories to gain a seat from Labour in Leicester East - in this environment! So the Muslim backlash over the Gaza War did indeed materialize at the ballot box, it just didn't matter in the grand scheme of things, given the huge Labour lead and the UK's political system. Still something to keep in mind with regard to elections in France or Michigan...


It's the nature of the beast in a first part the post system. You either get seats or you don't. Vote share while interesting to hypothesis over, is irrelevant.

In terms of the SNP and bad government. These were UK elections and no SNP MPs at Westminster were ever part of any government.
While what you've said is partly true the framing is not. The results are a reflection of voters seeking change after successive SNP governments in Scottish Parliament.

Edit - The UK is not in the European Union :thumbsup:

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Jul 5 2024 07:19am
Member
Posts: 54,061
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Jul 5 2024 07:46am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 5 Jul 2024 15:17)
It's the nature of the beast in a first part the post system. You either get seats or you don't. Vote share while interesting to hypothesis over, is irrelevant.

It's not totally irrelevant imho. First, because the underlying support level plays a role in determining how much of a mandate a government does or does not have. For example, say Labour wanted to use its big majority to pass really radical and sweeping reforms, then I would expect a ton of backlash because two thirds of the electorate would say "this is not what we signed up for". Not that Keir Starmer would ever do anything radical or bold, but still.

And second, because the vote share determines how close or far away a party is from gaining seats in the next election. For example, the SNP in Scotland would only need to recover by some 5 to 8-ish percent to win back two dozen seats. If the Tories gained a similar amount in terms of vote share, they would still fall well short of defeating Labour. Likewise, the LibDems and Reform are at a level where small gains or losses in their vote share would translate to disproportionate changes in their seat count.

The non-linear way the popular vote translates into seats in a FPTP system also informs the correct strategy for party leadership. Sometimes, it's more rational to play to the electorate to squeeze out a few more percentage points which yield a large number of additional seats, at other times, it's more rational to focus on the long-term branding and health of the party.
Member
Posts: 20,044
Joined: Apr 13 2016
Gold: 32,397.50
Jul 5 2024 08:16am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 5 2024 02:46pm)
It's not totally irrelevant imho. First, because the underlying support level plays a role in determining how much of a mandate a government does or does not have. For example, say Labour wanted to use its big majority to pass really radical and sweeping reforms, then I would expect a ton of backlash because two thirds of the electorate would say "this is not what we signed up for". Not that Keir Starmer would ever do anything radical or bold, but still.

And second, because the vote share determines how close or far away a party is from gaining seats in the next election. For example, the SNP in Scotland would only need to recover by some 5 to 8-ish percent to win back two dozen seats. If the Tories gained a similar amount in terms of vote share, they would still fall well short of defeating Labour. Likewise, the LibDems and Reform are at a level where small gains or losses in their vote share would translate to disproportionate changes in their seat count.

The non-linear way the popular vote translates into seats in a FPTP system also informs the correct strategy for party leadership. Sometimes, it's more rational to play to the electorate to squeeze out a few more percentage points which yield a large number of additional seats, at other times, it's more rational to focus on the long-term branding and health of the party.


Not even remotely. Once a party has a majority in parliament. Which they do. Laws will be passed wether the public like it or not; as long those party MPs fall in line with the vote.
Your describing something akin to proportional representation but this is precisely the opposite.

As I said the vote share is great for hypothesising but in terms of actual meaningful and practical process. It is irrelevant.

Labour have a mandate now for upto 5 years to pass whatever laws the want.
The only possible impact on their majority would be by elections or party defections.

Not saying I agree with it, but that is how the system works.
The outcome tends to lead to functioning majority governments as opposed to coalitions.
It also means as you pointed out that a majority of voters in terms of overall vote share don't get the party they voted for.
As a Scot that is nothing new whatsoever.
Due to the first past the post constituency system, Scotland could and have previously elected almost unanimously SNP MPs but still only ever been an opposition party.
Due to how many seats are in Scotland and how many are elsewhere not contested by SNP candidates.

It's an irony that English voters en masse now experience this kind of constitutional inadequacy to this extent.

Whether opposition parties will push for proportional representation I think is unlikely. The lib dems have gained so many seats they could legitimately feel they could become the second largest party in an election.
Reform and the Tories are very likely to thrash out some kind of reforming of the centre right of British politics, so worrying about representation for smaller parties will not be a priority.

The public are in general apathetic and disengaged with the British political system to the point where meaningful pressure to reform the system is unlikely.
Unless of course Farage resists a merger with Tories and pushes for some kind of national front style populist takeover of the mainstream agenda. Which is entirely possible.

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Jul 5 2024 08:18am
Member
Posts: 54,061
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Jul 5 2024 09:01am
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 5 Jul 2024 16:16)
Not even remotely. Once a party has a majority in parliament. Which they do. Laws will be passed wether the public like it or not; as long those party MPs fall in line with the vote.
Your describing something akin to proportional representation but this is precisely the opposite.

As I said the vote share is great for hypothesising but in terms of actual meaningful and practical process. It is irrelevant.

Labour have a mandate now for upto 5 years to pass whatever laws the want.
The only possible impact on their majority would be by elections or party defections.

I think we just disagree on the meaning of the word "mandate". Of course the underlying vote share of the parties is irrelevant for the process in Westminster, but again: if the government wanted to institute radical change, it would imho make a difference if they can claim a public mandate for that change or not. They could ram their reforms through against public sentiment, but the political price would obviously be huge, hence, it's unlikely they'll do that. Thus, the actual level of public support does imho also play a real role in the political process, not just the raw seat count. A smaller, subordinate role, to be sure, but it's imho not entirely irrelevant whether you get 420 seats based on 50% of the vote or 33%.

In practical terms, this will likely mean a rather moderate Labour government in which the left wing of the party will not be able to steer Starmer too far away from the center.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jul 5 2024 09:02am
Member
Posts: 20,044
Joined: Apr 13 2016
Gold: 32,397.50
Jul 5 2024 09:45am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 5 2024 04:01pm)
I think we just disagree on the meaning of the word "mandate". Of course the underlying vote share of the parties is irrelevant for the process in Westminster, but again: if the government wanted to institute radical change, it would imho make a difference if they can claim a public mandate for that change or not. They could ram their reforms through against public sentiment, but the political price would obviously be huge, hence, it's unlikely they'll do that. Thus, the actual level of public support does imho also play a real role in the political process, not just the raw seat count. A smaller, subordinate role, to be sure, but it's imho not entirely irrelevant whether you get 420 seats based on 50% of the vote or 33%.

In practical terms, this will likely mean a rather moderate Labour government in which the left wing of the party will not be able to steer Starmer too far away from the center.


No I think you are fundamentally overestimating the importance of vote share in terms of the efficacy of a majority government.

Literally nothing else matters in regard to passing laws or government process than the voting majority.

Voteshare matters only as a talking point. Nothing else.
Member
Posts: 4,621
Joined: Jan 30 2021
Gold: 751.50
Jul 6 2024 06:21pm
congrats britain, to get rid of the tories you voted for a party that will make every important problem even worse :rofl:

the labour leader already had a talk with trudeau and trudeau loves how many things they agree on.......YIKES

meanwhile sunak could barely hold back the laughter during his last speech, these people dont give a damn lmao

but hey, keep voting harder :rofl:

you aint voting your way out of this shit, enjoy the decline

same in france, le pen wont do shit even if she could stop losing, while the 18-24 age group voted almost 50% socialist

Member
Posts: 66,666
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
Jul 6 2024 07:00pm
Quote (JohnnyMcCoy @ Jul 7 2024 02:21am)
but hey, keep voting harder :rofl:


What's your alternate solution or proposal, if you have any ?
Member
Posts: 4,621
Joined: Jan 30 2021
Gold: 751.50
Jul 7 2024 05:45am
Quote (Meanwhile @ Jul 7 2024 03:00am)
What's your alternate solution or proposal, if you have any ?


stop obsessing over bullshit politics and build your own life

whether its macron or le pen, trump or joe......none of these dipshits care about you and they are not going to fix your problems
Member
Posts: 54,061
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Jul 7 2024 05:54am
Quote (JohnnyMcCoy @ 7 Jul 2024 13:45)
stop obsessing over bullshit politics and build your own life

whether its macron or le pen, trump or joe......none of these dipshits care about you and they are not going to fix your problems


That's not a solution, though. The whole premise is that dipshit politicians are making such disastrous decisions that we, as individual citizens, cannot overcome the consequences, not even with perfect personal decision-making.
Also, the plebs giving up, falling in line and keeping their head down in resignation is exactly what they want.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jul 7 2024 05:55am
Member
Posts: 66,666
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
Jul 7 2024 05:57am
Quote (JohnnyMcCoy @ Jul 7 2024 01:45pm)
stop obsessing over bullshit politics and build your own life

whether its macron or le pen, trump or joe......none of these dipshits care about you and they are not going to fix your problems


ok so "don't vote because politicians are not going to fix your problems" ?
useful
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1656657658659660717Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll